Ever since some ACLU types tried to ban hollow points in the early ‘70s, the clueless have been shouting about “malicious intent” to cause “additional pain and suffering” with “more lethal” ammo. We’ve explained several reasons why it’s used. There’s one more, and it surprises folks until they look at what the courts call “the totality of the circumstances.”
One sharp-eyed, sharp-thinking reader, Alonzo Gomez, has already found it. In the last segment, he commented, “…just wanted to add this: stopping who needs to be stopped as fast as possible is not only in the interest of the shooter and any possible bystanders or victims, but also in the shootee’s. While the antis are so busy finding terminal ballistics discussions distasteful and irrelevant to their approach (‘don’t have a gun’), they seem to miss that one effective bullet, as abhorrent as the term ‘effective’ may be to them, is preferable to 12 ineffective ones in the target’s body. Hollow points are actually more humane. Unless they prefer that we load with icepick projectiles so they can better nail us in the courtroom for overkill?”
Alonzo nailed it. If you look at the big picture, the guy shot fewer times is probably easier for emergency medical personnel to save, making the expanding bullet literally less lethal. Now, the points of less over-penetration, reduced ricochet, and faster stops are pretty much incontrovertible. This last point is more debatable, because there are so many variables as to where even one bullet can land. But it’s a strong argument for our side, certainly strong enough to serve as an antidote to the poison of the BS “dum-dum bullets are indicia of malice” argument.
Thanks for taking the time to read this short series. Life has taught me that if you can’t explain why you’re doing what you’re doing, it’s nature’s way of telling you that you probably shouldn’t be doing it. The above explanations have served me well for forty years, and for the best of all reasons: they’re absolutely true.
I have tried shooting +p bullets in both my Smith and Wesson JFrame and in my Kimber. I decided that I wasn’t going to use +p bullets after that! I decided that it would be much better for me to use a really good normal bullet. So, for my JFrame I use Hornady ones with the little pink rubber things in the top of the bullet. They are expensive but much easier to shoot.
I have tried shooting +p bullets in both my Smith and Wesson JFrame and in my Kimber. I decided that I wasn’t going to use +p bullets after that! I decided that it would be much better for me to use a really good normal bullet. So, for my JFrame I use Hornady ones with the little pink rubber things in the top of the bullet. They are expensive but much easier to shoot.
Wait… did I just get quoted by Mas on his own blog?! Holy smokes, I can now throw away my silly bucket list because this one’s gonna be hard to top! Thank you, Mr. Ayoob, for this and also for helping shape my way of thinking about those issues over the past, oh, 25 years or so. I am humbled.
Wait… did I just get quoted by Mas on his own blog?! Holy smokes, I can now throw away my silly bucket list because this one’s gonna be hard to top! Thank you, Mr. Ayoob, for this and also for helping shape my way of thinking about those issues over the past, oh, 25 years or so. I am humbled.
Mas, I like that last paragraph about nature and doing something when you can’t explain why you are doing it. You could have explained that to me 40 years ago.
As you know I just recently received my CCL. In my class the people on the range would have to empty a magazine to get an incapacitating shot. Regardless of the ammo used. But I see your point.
Mas, I like that last paragraph about nature and doing something when you can’t explain why you are doing it. You could have explained that to me 40 years ago.
As you know I just recently received my CCL. In my class the people on the range would have to empty a magazine to get an incapacitating shot. Regardless of the ammo used. But I see your point.
I seem to remember this issue played out back when NYPD first issued 9MMs and mandated “humane” FMJ ammo. Street cops quickly learned the only way to reliably stop someone was to empty a magazine into them. The policy was reviewed after the shooting of Amadou Diallo. (41 shots, 19 hits)
The issue is also in the news right now with the San Francisco lawsuit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/25/ninth-circuit-upholds-requirement-that-guns-be-either-locked-or-carried-on-ones-person/
I seem to remember this issue played out back when NYPD first issued 9MMs and mandated “humane” FMJ ammo. Street cops quickly learned the only way to reliably stop someone was to empty a magazine into them. The policy was reviewed after the shooting of Amadou Diallo. (41 shots, 19 hits)
The issue is also in the news right now with the San Francisco lawsuit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/25/ninth-circuit-upholds-requirement-that-guns-be-either-locked-or-carried-on-ones-person/
Great series! Thanks for the solid presentation.
Great series! Thanks for the solid presentation.
Liberals will scream vicious, bloodthirsty, murder if one opted for a .22, but had to resort to more shots as well. There is no end, no bottom, to these libtards. Nor is there any end to the greed of a lawyer.
Liberals will scream vicious, bloodthirsty, murder if one opted for a .22, but had to resort to more shots as well. There is no end, no bottom, to these libtards. Nor is there any end to the greed of a lawyer.
Great series, maybe some of those law makers in NJ will read it.
Great series, maybe some of those law makers in NJ will read it.
Thanks Mas
Thanks Mas
Thanks for all the additional information regarding hollow point bullets. I’ve been a big fan of them when they first came out for handguns for up close protection. For patrol rifles I always preferred FMJ or a good bonded bulled for penetration and today Hornady addresses that need with the TAP ammo.
On a personal note Mas,
I always wanted to thank you for mentioning on your blog Harry Beckwith Gunshop in Miconopy in a previous story about the history of the store. Ever since then me and my wife stop there whenever we are up in the area. I’ve made many purchases there from helpful staff. Thanks again!!!
Thanks for all the additional information regarding hollow point bullets. I’ve been a big fan of them when they first came out for handguns for up close protection. For patrol rifles I always preferred FMJ or a good bonded bulled for penetration and today Hornady addresses that need with the TAP ammo.
On a personal note Mas,
I always wanted to thank you for mentioning on your blog Harry Beckwith Gunshop in Miconopy in a previous story about the history of the store. Ever since then me and my wife stop there whenever we are up in the area. I’ve made many purchases there from helpful staff. Thanks again!!!
Excellent series of posts, Mas. Seems I’ve heard this before somewhere.
It’s great those that can’t make your classes can still gain from your expertise. Thanks for sharing.
For those that don’t know,Mas has just shared a portion of his MAG20 classroom with us. He has done so on other topics. We owe him gratitude for freely dispensing his knowledge.
Thanks again Mas.
Excellent series of posts, Mas. Seems I’ve heard this before somewhere.
It’s great those that can’t make your classes can still gain from your expertise. Thanks for sharing.
For those that don’t know,Mas has just shared a portion of his MAG20 classroom with us. He has done so on other topics. We owe him gratitude for freely dispensing his knowledge.
Thanks again Mas.
Mas – thanks for giving us all futher education. I am a recent “recruit” to the armed citzenry and have devoured nearly all your writings. You have taught me so much – not only in areas of hardware, but more importantly (in my opinion) – “software” – our psyche. This knowledge is no less than lifesaving.
Mas – thanks for giving us all futher education. I am a recent “recruit” to the armed citzenry and have devoured nearly all your writings. You have taught me so much – not only in areas of hardware, but more importantly (in my opinion) – “software” – our psyche. This knowledge is no less than lifesaving.
Mas,
Good commentary on expanding bullets. Thanks.
On a different subject, awhile back you did a thread on on old TV westerns and the Hollywood depictions of guns and gun fights. Since we are always on guard against false portrayals of gun owners and gun use in media, I have got to bring up a TV “reality show” I ran across the other night called “Mountain Monsters”. The show depicts a bunch of supposed “rednecks” running around at night, each armed with an array of rifles, shotguns, and handguns chasing mythical monsters in the backwoods.
The participants display some of the most unsafe handling of firearms I have ever seen depicted on TV. Repeatedly covering each other with the muzzles of their weapons, usually with their fingers on the trigger, repeatedly falling on the ground, and generally acting like fools, all the while the commentator is reminding the viewers that these guys are experienced with guns.
Uninformed folks will view this show thinking this is true depiction of those who own and carry weapons. Part of me believes the producers have this intent.
Mas,
Good commentary on expanding bullets. Thanks.
On a different subject, awhile back you did a thread on on old TV westerns and the Hollywood depictions of guns and gun fights. Since we are always on guard against false portrayals of gun owners and gun use in media, I have got to bring up a TV “reality show” I ran across the other night called “Mountain Monsters”. The show depicts a bunch of supposed “rednecks” running around at night, each armed with an array of rifles, shotguns, and handguns chasing mythical monsters in the backwoods.
The participants display some of the most unsafe handling of firearms I have ever seen depicted on TV. Repeatedly covering each other with the muzzles of their weapons, usually with their fingers on the trigger, repeatedly falling on the ground, and generally acting like fools, all the while the commentator is reminding the viewers that these guys are experienced with guns.
Uninformed folks will view this show thinking this is true depiction of those who own and carry weapons. Part of me believes the producers have this intent.
Mas, agree with Don above. Thank you for decades of your wisdom have followed you from the start of your teachings.
Your inspiration for doing things the right way has made me a better shooter, better prepared to defend myself and react after a shooting….. I have won many shooting tournaments, taught police firearms, been involved in clean shooting at work. I used many of your teachings at work including what to do following a work related shooting and your techniques are spot on. There are many up and coming firearms and self defece teachers but no one can come close to your level of skills and gift to articulate proper techniques.
Mas, agree with Don above. Thank you for decades of your wisdom have followed you from the start of your teachings.
Your inspiration for doing things the right way has made me a better shooter, better prepared to defend myself and react after a shooting….. I have won many shooting tournaments, taught police firearms, been involved in clean shooting at work. I used many of your teachings at work including what to do following a work related shooting and your techniques are spot on. There are many up and coming firearms and self defece teachers but no one can come close to your level of skills and gift to articulate proper techniques.
Time to talk about Fort Hood, Mas!
Time to talk about Fort Hood, Mas!
I think that another, related reason has to do with combat accuracy.
If the encounter is measured by the number of bullets fired by the LEOs until the threat is neutralized and say, half of all shots fired by LEOs miss (Mas, you’ll have the actual statistics, I’m sure) then if it takes twice as many FMJ rounds to stop the threat, there will be twice as many misses flying past the threat and into harms way of the public.
It is as simple as fewer shots fired = fewer misses = less threat to the innocents.
I think that another, related reason has to do with combat accuracy.
If the encounter is measured by the number of bullets fired by the LEOs until the threat is neutralized and say, half of all shots fired by LEOs miss (Mas, you’ll have the actual statistics, I’m sure) then if it takes twice as many FMJ rounds to stop the threat, there will be twice as many misses flying past the threat and into harms way of the public.
It is as simple as fewer shots fired = fewer misses = less threat to the innocents.
Very good series! As always, Mas, your willingness to share your expertise is greatly appreciated.
Very good series! As always, Mas, your willingness to share your expertise is greatly appreciated.
TXCOMPT, for me, it’s ALMOST time to talk about Fort Hood. I’m waiting for a little more info to come out.
TXCOMPT, for me, it’s ALMOST time to talk about Fort Hood. I’m waiting for a little more info to come out.
Jeez, can’t a liberal get credit for _anything_? Back on March 14, in a comment to the first installment of this series, I said:
“I agree with Mas that if you’re going to carry a handgun for self-defense and only intend to use it when it is legal and necessary to do so, then it needs to be loaded with hollow points. If you’re going to have to use it in those circumstances, it needs to be able to stop your attacker in the fastest way possible, with as little lethal damage to him as necessary to achieve that stop, and with the least danger to bystanders. Only hollow points provide that combination, and only in the most effective caliber you can personally handle accurately and efficiently.”
To repeat: “with as little lethal damage to him as necessary to achieve that stop.”
From the liberal who thinks that expanding bullets are a good thing. And Alonzo gets all the credit. Sheesh. 😉
Jeez, can’t a liberal get credit for _anything_? Back on March 14, in a comment to the first installment of this series, I said:
“I agree with Mas that if you’re going to carry a handgun for self-defense and only intend to use it when it is legal and necessary to do so, then it needs to be loaded with hollow points. If you’re going to have to use it in those circumstances, it needs to be able to stop your attacker in the fastest way possible, with as little lethal damage to him as necessary to achieve that stop, and with the least danger to bystanders. Only hollow points provide that combination, and only in the most effective caliber you can personally handle accurately and efficiently.”
To repeat: “with as little lethal damage to him as necessary to achieve that stop.”
From the liberal who thinks that expanding bullets are a good thing. And Alonzo gets all the credit. Sheesh. 😉
Don’t be mad, Dave, it’s just so much more noticeable when it’s conservatives who talk about treating criminals humanely (even if shooting them is the topic)!
Don’t be mad, Dave, it’s just so much more noticeable when it’s conservatives who talk about treating criminals humanely (even if shooting them is the topic)!
Mas, great article as always. I still hear folks carrying fmj’s in their lcp’s and other .380’s. Has .380 ammo improved enough to give adequate penetration in the hollow point format? Personally I would not carry .380 as a primary but maybe as a back up in a pocket. It is cool how small the lcp is after all.
Mas, great article as always. I still hear folks carrying fmj’s in their lcp’s and other .380’s. Has .380 ammo improved enough to give adequate penetration in the hollow point format? Personally I would not carry .380 as a primary but maybe as a back up in a pocket. It is cool how small the lcp is after all.
Mike, a .380 is better than nothing but IMHO, its tiny cartridge and light bullet don’t give you enough power to get both penetration AND expansion. It tends to be one or the other. Hornady XTP 90 grain may be the best .380 combination according to testing, though I haven’t run across any shootings with it. It’s the reason I can’t really recommend .380 as an all-around defensive handgun.
Mike, a .380 is better than nothing but IMHO, its tiny cartridge and light bullet don’t give you enough power to get both penetration AND expansion. It tends to be one or the other. Hornady XTP 90 grain may be the best .380 combination according to testing, though I haven’t run across any shootings with it. It’s the reason I can’t really recommend .380 as an all-around defensive handgun.
Time for Fort Hood now, Mas? Plenty of info out there!
Time for Fort Hood now, Mas? Plenty of info out there!
I have read Marshall and Sanow. Hard to argue with their methodology. May have been Napoleon. Never been a big fan of his- I’ll take Frederick the Great of Prussia- “God marches with the biggest battalions.”
I have read Marshall and Sanow. Hard to argue with their methodology. May have been Napoleon. Never been a big fan of his- I’ll take Frederick the Great of Prussia- “God marches with the biggest battalions.”
TXCOMT: Soon.
TXCOMT: Soon.
Mr Ayoob, thank you for this series, it has been very interesting. I understand the reasons for hollow point bullets, I will date myself, when I wore a badge we were issued a new brand of hollow point ammunition named Super-Vel. I don’t mean to be off subject but could you refer me to information regarding the fact that I have installed Wolff springs in my hand guns. Would I be fighting two battles with the hollow points and the springs? Thank you for your time and stay safe out there.
Mr Ayoob, thank you for this series, it has been very interesting. I understand the reasons for hollow point bullets, I will date myself, when I wore a badge we were issued a new brand of hollow point ammunition named Super-Vel. I don’t mean to be off subject but could you refer me to information regarding the fact that I have installed Wolff springs in my hand guns. Would I be fighting two battles with the hollow points and the springs? Thank you for your time and stay safe out there.