1. There is one unshakable, irrefutable fact about racial identity politics, there is a lot of money and power at stake for those who stir that pot.

    I sincerely believe that folks like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, et al., started their activism for noble reasons. In the beginning of their crusades, no one can dispute that discrimination was widespread and wrong. Our country went through a reset of attitudes that eliminated, if not all, an overwhelming majority of that discrimination. Unfortunately, in the haste to repent for past sins, one discriminatory practice was replaced by another called affirmative action. With affirmative action came a new class of people that it was suddenly ok to discriminate against.

    While I detest the overwhelming majority of what they profess, I believe the David Duke’s of the world see themselves as a white man’s MLK, fighting for for the white race, but he and his followers, have put themselves in the same category as Louie Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam by pushing the “supremacy” of one race over another.

    The problem for people who have suffered the discriminatory effects of affirmative action (court sanctioned discrimination) there are not many groups fighting for their rights. A politician or any public figure that evens hints that this discrimination is wrong or even exists, is immediately attacked by a media and innumerable organizations intent on destroying them.

    Then along comes Trump. A phenomena in American politics. Dismissed by the establishment as unelectable, but seen as the best hope of those who saw themselves as forgotten citizens (Hillary called them deplorable), with no one advocating for them. Now, those who have profited from that discrimination and ideology are using their positions of power to crush that hope.

    Frustrations are quickly being stoked into flame. Contrary to the theme from the media, the left has numerous organized response groups made up of every “class” of people who have profited from being added to the list of those who receive the benefits of affirmative action, packed and ready to converge wherever directed, to put down any semblance of disagreement with their agenda. I have seen no such organizing on the right. When a bunch of whackos like what converged on Charlottesville comes along, the media and the left is more than happy, even ecstatic, to label them as representing all conservatives.

    Does anyone have any ideas on how to avoid a “civil war” short of total submission by conservatives? The “progressive” ground game/mobile militia is well organized. Conservatives have been relegated to occasionally sticking their heads up out of the trench, only to be sniped at by those in control. I hope someone has some answers that don’t include the dissolution of the Republic.

  2. What you are seeing in America today is a manifestation of a mental disorder that humans suffer from as a species. I call it Left/Right Polarization (LRP). It is caused by certain aspects of human psychology. Specifically, the tendency of the human mind to (1) obsess upon mortality and the future, (2) believe that a utopian solution is achievable and (3) be drawn to simplistic solutions to complex problems.

    These characteristics of the human mind tend to draw people to dogmatic political philosophies of the extreme right-wing or left-wing type. Occasionally, “groupthink” occurs which leads to the rise of an oppressive, activist version of an extreme philosophy. This is accompanied by delusions of grandeur and leads the infected group to believe that they are superior to other people and, therefore, especially endowed to assume leadership of a society.

    The oppressive group begins to dehumanize its political opponents and then moves on to other forms of oppression. In effect, the oppressive group becomes legally insane. As everyone knows, a definition of legal insanity is when a person becomes unable to distinguish right from wrong. This happens to any group infected with severe LRP. They lose their moral compass and begin to commit terrible crimes. This often results in a backlash from the oppressed groups and usually sparks a war.

    There are many examples of LRP in history. A right-wing oppressive movement developed in early America based upon slavery. Groupthink among Southern Whites lead to extreme oppression of people of color. Naturally, it provoked a countering Left-wing backlash in the form of the Abolition Movement. The result was the Civil War and the destruction of the institution of slavery.

    The Prohibition of Alcohol Movement was another such episode in American History. The oppression, this time, came from a Left-wing oppressive movement engaged in “groupthink” around the issue of alcohol. Whiskey drinkers were the people who were dehumanized by this group. Fortunately, the backlash against Prohibition shut this oppressive movement down without having to resort to war.

    In Germany, we see the right-wing Nazi movement. Jewish people were the ones dehumanized by the Nazis. The insane Nazis gave the World the holocaust and WW II.

    Sadly, this mental disorder is still widespread today. In the Middle East, we see an oppressive, right-wing movement based upon Islamic extremism. Non-Muslim “Infidels” are the people being dehumanized by these troubled minds.

    In America, we see an oppressive, Left-wing Movement forming. “Groupthink” totally dominates the Left in America today. They are busy dehumanizing their political opponents which they freely label with terms such as racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. This oppressive movement owns the news media in America. They use the media as a sword and shield. A sword to attack their political opponents with disinformation, distortions, character assassination, etc. A shield to provide protective cover against any attacks made against them by their opponents or to cover-up any mistakes or crimes that they commit themselves.

    The oppressive modern American Left-wing Movement is naturally provoking a backlash. Conservatives are organizing to fight back. Unfortunately, the equally insane right-wing neo-nazi groups are also emboldened to fight back as well. As a result, American society is being destabilized in much the same way that it was destabilized just prior to the Civil War by the issue of Slavery. Note that the cause is the same (LRP) although the issues are different. Sadly, there is a real chance that this new epidemic of LRP will cause a second American Civil War.

    It is my hope that, one day, the mental healthcare profession will come to recognize LRP for what it is. A contagious, degenerative mental disorder that can affect entire populations. My fond hope is that, one day, individuals who suffer from LRP will be isolated and given proper treatment in a mental institution rather than be allowed to climb to leadership positions in political parties. Clearly, people who are afflicted with LRP should not lead despite their own belief (like Hitler’s) in their superior leadership abilities. They should be disqualified from holding public office due to mental illness.

    Unfortunately, LRP is not recognize for the dangerous illness that it represents and the populations of the World still suffer tremendously from its effects. The “Black Death” or “Aides” or the “Spanish Flu” are minor diseases compared to the harm caused by LRP. LRP killed over 100 million in the 20th Century alone.

  3. Liberal Dave, in the previous thread where this discussion began, you expressed your doubts on any movement to remove statues other than those connected to the Confederacy. You even dismissed links to discussions dating two years ago of removing all statues connected to founding fathers (or any historical figure) who were also slave holders, as the thinking of individuals, not a group.

    If it was not a movement before Trump alluded to it, the ground swell has certainly grown into a tsunami in the week since. Are anti-fa, black lives matter, and the anarchists like Pavlov’s dogs, just waiting for the stimulus from a common master to respond?

  4. This is interesting and I’m not going to get to deep here. It seems in this new generation of I don’t believe in naming shit so whatever they call themselves now have to belief that they know answers to all questions. Which after talking with a few and found out they are willing to embrace socialism? Though when pressed for what they thought intrigued them they could not really give a reason then I asked them what country do they believe is the closest to what socialism is working they way that closely represents what they believe. Blank stares when pressed for more longer stares. And when informed that there isn’t a truly socialistic country well you would have thought into only pulled out the rug but shut off the porch light. Point being we are at the mercy of some of the most uneducated group of young people in history. A few can’t tell you even what the civil war dates or who won so when confronted with that what options are there really…

  5. You laid it out in black and white Mas and as usual got it 100 percent right. I stay out of the fray on social media as I see it as useless. As for Social media I do believe it is going to be the downfall of life as we know it.

  6. Are we witnessing the death of free speech in America?

    Whatever happened to, “I don’t agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”?

    Even assuming that all the marchers were the “neo-Nazis” and “White supremecists” described by the MSM— which I don’t believe they were, but even if that had been the case— doesn’t the Constitution protect their right to publicly gather and express their opinions?

    Apparently not: even on supposedly-conservative Fox News, the talking heads were all saying “Hate speech has no place in this great country of ours.” Politicians of both partes rushed to condemn the marchers.

    I guess the Framers forgot to include that part in the 1st Amendment: the part about freedom of speech not applying to anything our rulers decide is “hate speech.”

    I thought Trump’s statement was true, courageous, and showed a tremendous amount of integrity: he said what he believed, regardless of the blowback he must have known he’d get. And he was right: not all the people there were “neo-Nazis”, there were violent acts on all sides, and the Leftists started it.

    In my mind, that statement made up for a lot of past gaffes.

    And the language of the MSM was truly Orwellian: the Leftist ‘antifas’ harrassing and attacking the ralliers were referred to as “the anti-racists.”

    “Violence broke out”, said the New York Times.

    No, violence is not something that just “breaks out” all by itself— certain people began committing violent acts. And when the NYT uses that sort of language, you can bet your bottom dollar that the ones initiating the violence were the Lefties. Had it been the marchers, the Times would surely have made that crystal clear.

    While the marchers were universally described as “neo-Nazis”, “White nationalists”, “White supremecists”— I’d be surprised if that was true of them all. The issue that inspired the gathering at that particular Park— formerly known for decades as “Lee Park”; recently re-named “Emancipation Park”— was the removal of the statue of Robert E. Lee— a move which I suspect quite a few ‘ordinary citizens’ also opposed. I know I oppose it, and all similar removals and re-namings inspired by the notion that our ancestors were a bunch of terrible people.

    Lee was by all accounts a great man, a much-loved leader, and a true gentleman in the old-fashioned sense of the word: thoughtful, kind, fair, brave, loyal and true to what he believed in, forgiving of his enemies once the conflict was over. My maternal granny had lithographs of Lee and Stonewall Jackson on the wall of her parlor, and I can still remember her telling us kids what a fine honorable Southern gentleman Lee was.

    By comparison, the antifa idiots and BLM gorillas who are howling to have his memorial removed aren’t worthy to scrape the horse-droppings off the bottom of his riding boots, IMO.

    I guess the ’emancipation’ the new name refers to must be our emancipation from the First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and assembly.

  7. The worst of this is that the people we voted into public office on both sides are fueling the fire. The congress critters are supposed to be the adults in the room but it seems they have taken leave of thier senses. They have turned from God and have no moral compass.
    Watch your 6,3,9 and12 my friend for they humt LEO in earnest.

  8. Discrimination used to be considered a good thing: to call a man ‘discriminating’ meant that he was able to distinguish good from bad, right from wrong, wise from foolish, safe from unsafe, worthy from unworthy.

    When you think about it, everyone’s daily lives are made up of these sorts of ‘discriminations’.

    The problem with ‘anti-discrimination laws’ is that they infringe on peoples’ Right of Association: my right to associate with— or not associate with— whoever I please.

    If I want to not serve White people in my restaurant, that should be my right. If that goes against the values of the general public I’m serving, I’ll quickly go broke.

    In a similar vein, I don’t think a baker should be forced by ‘anti-discrimination laws’ to bake a cake for someone he chooses not to.

    Likewise with housing: if I choose not to sell my house to Eskimos— or to sell *only* to Eskimos— that should be my right.

    Likewise with private schools, and private clubs, and any and all private organizations: IMO all folks should have the right to associate with, or not associate with, whoever they please.

    In theory, ours is “a free country”…

    But obviously in today’s America, what was once our Freedom of Association has died: replaced by all those ‘anti-discrimination’ laws.

  9. God, I hate conspiracy theorists, but it seems no one had ever heard of Jason Kessler, the organizer of the “Unite The Right” rally in Charlottesville, prior to his sudden appearance as a “right wing activist” a week after Trumps election November 2016. Now it seems, people that actual were acquainted with him prior to his sudden appearance as a champion of right wing ideology and new found anti-semitism, confirm he was a democrat, Barack Obama supporter, and Occupy Wall Street sympathizer right up until his sudden rebirth as a radical right winger.
    Even the SPLC web site, while trying to downplay his prior far left politics, it doesn’t deny that his old friends confirm his past.

    Wikipedia also reports this, although it appears they are about to drop that page.

    I have no doubts that the majority of the clowns following his lead were true believers in “white supremacy”. My question is, would they have ever brought their protest to fruition without Kessler’s leadership? Isn’t the name Kessler normally connected to a Jewish heritage? Strange for a neo-nazi.

    At least one congressman has requested a DOJ investigation into Kessler’s prior connections to the left.

  10. Dennis, I”m to the point where I believe that “dissolution of the Republic” would be a good thing.

    I can’t see any way the two sides— the ‘progressive’ Left and the conservative Right— are ever gonna see eye-to-eye. Can you?

    Folks who want to take away our guns, open our borders, confiscate wealth from those who earned it and give it to those who didn’t, enforce “equality” with racial and ethnic quotas, regulate every aspect of our lives— are never gonna change their minds. Just like those of us who believe in the ‘traditional American freedoms’, are never gonna change ours.

    That’s why at this point I truly believe that a— peaceful this time!— Secession– a ‘nation divided’— would be the best for all concerned.

    Let the progressives try things their way, and let the rest of us continue to do things our way.

    Staying togeher, I don’t see how this polarized and polarizing conflict is ever gonna end….

  11. I don’t know what the guy was doing, but the guy in the car didn’t drive into the crowd, he rear-ended a small car that struck a much bigger SUV, and forced that into the crowd. You can see that on the drone footage and the ground video. I don’t know why he did that, but there was a lane next to the SUV that he could have driven into that was full of people and if he was trying to run down people driving into that lane at high speed would almost certainly have been a more effective approach than rear ending a 3+ ton SUV and ton plus car.

    Drone –
    Ground –

    And people manage to have fatal “fast moving car rear ends stopped car” crashes all the time without anyone planning to kill anyone. It was obviously stupid to be driving that fast there, but I’ve seen more than one car crushed like a soda can from idiocy.

  12. I’ve said it here before, but I need to say it again: I am opposed to the use of violence to obtain political goals, whether the violence comes from the right or the left. As such, I do not support Antifa to the extent it advocates, engages in, or threatens violent direct action. To the extent that there were physical attacks against the right by anyone among the counter-protesters, including Antifa, which were not self-defense I condemn them, just as I do any attacks which went the other way against the counter-protesters. And, indeed, I think that there is evidence that both occurred.

    I don’t care to debate the “few good people” issue. The problem is that Trump either intentionally or incompetently made both groups equal because of his belief that violence occurred on both sides and did so without condemning the views of the White supremacists. It was the equivalent of equally punishing two kids because they were fighting at school without also dealing with the fact that that one of them was defending a third kid against predation by a bully. Perhaps both did deserve punishment for fighting, which was wrong and the wrong way of going about addressing the matter, but ignoring the bullying utterly and unjustly misses the greater moral issue. The real problem with the “few good people” issue is not so much that it was wrong as that it was, at best, inconsequential in comparison to the greater point which was ignored and, at worst, it was an attempt to divert attention away from that greater issue and not deal with it.

    Dennis, within any movement over controversial issues there are always going to be those who are willing to go too far. They rarely prevail, just like those in the anti-abortion movement who have killed or advocated the killing of abortion providers have not brought a generalized wave of homicide to that movement.

    Finally, and partially on the same point and partially in response to Mas’ comments, “high-profile Antifa violence” preceding Charlottesville? The Wikipedia article on Antifa lists exactly two incidents of violence, plus one threat, attributed to Antifa:

    Since one was at the Trump inauguration and the other at the 2017 Berkeley protests, I suppose I have to give you a technical checkmark on “high-profile” but to suggest that these three incidents were enough to re-energize the White supremacy movement after months of Trump courting it and the supremacists themselves saying that they were on the rebound due to Trump really strains credulity on that issue. Again, I’m not defending Antifa but only saying that the notion that their actions did anything substantial to inspire the White supremacists doesn’t bear scrutiny.

  13. Paul Corbin in post #1 coming through with my thoughts exactly!

    Plenty of others here present some interesting stuff.

    My take is that all this shite in media (lame stream, social et al) is so tiring and distracting if you get into it. That’s its purpose! To drive folks to distraction.
    My advice is to stay away from these dumbass gatherings of stool samples. Do what one has to if inadvertently caught up in such.

  14. Mas, YOU may think you’re “getting old”, but your eyesight is still perfect and your fingers still do just what you tell them to do… whether on a trigger or a keyboard.
    You saw through all the smoke, identified the target, and fired mercilessly and accurately.

    Great analisis of the whole charade.

    One detail,, though.. the definition of “FASCIST ” Is government control of private means of production. The term is grossly misused these days…. spat out mostly as a meaningless pejorative.

    Now, the behaviour to which you referred as “fascist” certainly IS “marxist”… those tactics and goals and values come from the twisted mind of that old German misfit with an axe to grind. Not all fascists are marxist, but all marxists are fascist. The “National Socialism”that grew into what became Hitler’s nazi party and later government all came straight out of Karl Marx’ twisted thinking.

    There is NO WAY those “neo-nazis” or “white supremacists” are “right wing” operatives.

    One poster above referenced a bit of that organiser’s background, that Kessler critter. Yes, he was a kingpin in the Occupy New York debacle a while back. He was also a kingpin in a signficant anti-trump rally/riot shortly after the election. You talk about hipocrisy, HE is hipocrisy on two legs. It is known he met, as the “permittee” and organiser of his little band of angels, with the city police department to “work out” the “security” plan…. a few weeks prior to the circus show that seems to have gone off rather closely according to the script they agreed upon…..

    Personally I believe our DoJ need to investigate this clown… his background, history, recent (since back about, oh, more or less the time a certain kinyun was eyeballing that large white House on Pennsylvania Avenue in DC……) activities… oh, and do NOT forget his source of funds… WHO has been feeding this guy? I wonder if its the same soros, er,I mean source, as that which helped organise and conduct most of the Occupy incidents… Ferguson, Baltimore, Berserkeley, Portland Oregon….. We’ve read about pay being offered for “demonstrators” (and the implied meaning was certainly NOT the type seen in the aisles at Costco….), along with travel and lodging, and the chartered busses…… SOMEONE is bankrolling that. DoJ need to find out who…. and make some connexions.. something about interstate conspiracy to incite to riot…… cut off the money pipeline, arrest some of the kingpins, and lo and behild, these things will stop.

  15. The city of Charlottesville sold a permit to one group, failed to disperse an opposing group who had no permit, and (it’s still not clear which side is lying) either directed the police to withdraw, or the police decided not to intervene.

    The “Nazis” were basically a group of harmless nutters – really, does *anyone* take them seriously? – “antifa” is a bunch of terrorists, and frankly, it looks to me like the city of Charlottesville *wanted* a violent conflict.

    The media can screech “Nazi!” all they want, but the bad actor here was the city of Charlottesville.

  16. This case reminds me of the “rush to judgement” in the Trayvon Martin case.

    I’ve questioned a few things regarding this case:
    1. Maybe the driver did “lose it”, but when I saw the video, I thought that’s an awfully nice / expensive car for a 20-yr. old to be destroying (especially if he works for his money). Maybe he did lose it due to the general situation, but maybe he lost it when folks set upon his pride and joy with bats etc.
    His action may have not been right, but if you start destroying someone’s property, you’d best expect unpleasant results.
    2. I’m waiting to see if a video surfaces (but the MSM won’t show it if it does) that shows folks beating on the fellows car before he floored it (was he trying to get away from the mob?). Some folks interviewed have claimed folks were beating on his car before he accelerated.
    3. In the video shown, notice after the collision, the crowd immediately runs up to the rear of the car and starts beating it with bats, etc. They were so far away from where the car started that they couldn’t have known what caused the driver to accelerate – suppose he had a heart attack, seizure, etc.?
    4. If I’m on the jury, I’m probably giving him a pass for backing up in order to get away from the mob that set upon his car from the rear after the collision.
    I want to see video of what happened just before he accelerated, but if I’m on the jury there could be a lot of reasonable doubt introduced by a competent lawyer (could someone have hit him on the head thru an open window and caused him to inadvertently hit the accelerator and lose control of the vehicle?)

    I also lay a lot of the blame on our governor and the mayor of Charlottesville.
    I’ve seen enough reports that suggest the entire event was poorly handled, with the police not taking enough steps to keep the sides separated (by orders from the governor and / or mayor?).

  17. As Basicblur above noted – I’ve seen a different video that CLEARLY shows someone with a bat stepping out and bashing the car – just before he accelerated – I also want to see if any other videos pop up that more clearly show the entire altercation.

    Just like the Zimmerman case (I don’t celebrate the punks name) early on I saw footage where you could clearly see Mr. Zimmerman’s head injuries- those quickly stopped being shown as the media decided to make it a racial assault…. Then I was lucky enough to have the time to watch the entire trial on TV… And the prosecution seemed to make the case for the defense.

    ….But everyone else who follows the herd still insists he’s a murderer.

    I don’t bother watching the media for a week after some event – I want to wait until all the info is out.

  18. America, in 2017, is similar (in some ways) to Germany in the late 1920’s. Germany experienced the rise of an oppressive ideology (National Socialism) that promised to lead Germany to greatness but, instead, destroyed its democracy and, ultimately, destroyed the nation.

    America, today, is also facing the rise of an oppressive ideology (Modern American Left-wing Socialism) that promises to lead America to greatness and correct what is perceived as America’s racist past. These promises, however, are just as much a lie as those made by the Nazis. America today, like Germany then, is on the glide path of oppression.

    In Germany, many good people believed in Hitler and National Socialism early on. Some hung on and believe to the end. However, I think most of them woke up to see Hitler for what he was. Unfortunately, by the time they did so, it was too late. Germany’s democracy was destroyed and Hitler was fully in power.

    In a similar way, many good people in America today (like our own Liberal Dave) believe in Modern American Left-wing Socialism and have “bought in” to the promises that it has made. I suspect that, at some point in the future, Liberal Dave will also “wake up” to what the Left is doing. Unfortunately, it may be too late by then.

    The glide path of oppression is well trod in human societies. LRP syndrome insures that! So, it is not too hard to predict, in a general way, the future of America in the next few years as the Leftist try to seize power.

    It has already begun with attacks on the civil rights listed in the American Bill of Rights. Freedom of the Press is already a joke. The mainstream media has already been mostly subverted by the Left. The few outlets that dare publish anything contrary to the Leftist Party Line are labeled as “Alt-Right” sources and minimized. Eventually, there will be a total seizure of the media with only sources approved by the Party allowed to speak. Others who try and publish, contrary to the Party Line, will be arrested for “hate speech” and imprisoned.

    So, freedom of speech will be the next right to be shut down by the Left. Hate speech laws will be the tool used to shut that down too in combination with ostracism and loss of employment for anyone who dares speak out.

    Freedom of association will also be attacked. Likely, people who associate with groups hostile to the Party (like the NRA, etc.) will be arrested and accused of association with a terrorist group. Of course, the 2nd Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms has long been under attack. If the Left has its way, this right will be utterly destroyed and the confiscation of firearms and arrest of gun-owners will begin.

    All this will be accompanied by “Show Trials” who’s function is to demonstrate to the American People what happens to those that stand against the Party or the Party line.

    Eventually, the people will have enough and the backlash against the Leftist will begin in earnest. Violence will escalate as the Left “cracks down” even harder to hold onto power. A second American Civil War is the final result with horror and bloodshed being general across the land. The old, old pattern of LRP syndrome having played out yet again.

    I hope that I am wrong about the above sequence of events. I hope we can pull back from the brink and restore the civil rights that the Left is trying to subvert. I hope we can restore our democracy instead of standing by as the Left destroys it.

    As it stands now, however, the cycle of LRP violence is being renewed and America is on the glide path to oppression and civil war. May God help us.

  19. Personally, I saw nothing wrong with Trump’s initial comments. He condemned ALL violence, which obviously doesn’t fit the MSM narrative.

    What part of ALL do they not understand?

    BTW, I’ve seen a video where none other than Alan Dershowitz (no Trump lover he) stated the same thing – he saw nothing wrong with Trump’s initial (or follow-up) statements.
    Guess you won’t be seeing much of him on CNN, MSNBC, etc. for a while!

    I’m so disgusted with the MSM lately (and FOX News seems to be devolving) that I’m spending more time watching One America News – more news, less opinion!
    (That’s channel 347 for those of you with DIRECTV).

  20. Couple of things,
    statues are works of art. Since when do libs attack art.
    Growing up in NYC my contemporaries told me I had to be tolorent of others views of the world not matter how vulger they may be. Anybody remember robert mapplethorp or andres Serrano?

    This ridiculous need to tear down or remame everything that is politically incorrect by today’s standards reminds me of the zelots of ISIS running around the middle East blowing up statues & historic site’s.

    That being said, I was taught as a child that everyone in America had a voice. That the smallest minority the individual, deserved the greatest protection. That they had a right to protest and advocate for whatever they liked and that as an American it was my duty to protect that right.
    Now being raised by my grandparents for the formative years of my life had a huge impact on world view. My grandfather like many of his generation fought real Nazis in Europe. Not the backwoods variety found in this country.

    However as an adult I find that most of my neighbors & friends find my views abhorrent with regard to free speech & the right to protest. Nazis they say, should have no stage.

    So I find myself in this instance being on the side of the Nazis & Confederate fan boys. They had a right to protest and advocate to keep the statues without fear of attack by counter protester’s.

    I think a great deal of the fault here lies at the feet of the Charlottesville PD & local government. Both of whom had a duty to protect the right of the Nazis & Confederates to protest and protect them from attack. The counter-protesters also had every right to advocate for their position free from fear of being attacked for their beliefs.
    But allowing both groups to be in such close proximity to each other is a collosal blunder by local government. I saw both groups attacking each other within eyeshot of law enforcement with no consequences. WTF, is this how we do law enforcement today?

    Black eye for America, very much so. Just not in the way the media would have you think.
    In my mind I found both Charlottesville government & the media advocating to deny first amendment rights to the Nazis as the real black eye here, not the views of the Nazis or the violence that occurred. Though both were reprehensible.

    And just so everyone knows, maybe you can use this post to call me a Nazis sympathser but just be aware I’ll also protect the free speech rights of the commies, the lgblt’s, blm’s, soviergn citizens, tax protesters, anti-abortion groups & pro-abortion groups, people who prefer sanka over decaf. I don’t care, this is America everyone gets a voice no matter how demented it might be.

  21. TRX, the permit issue is complicated. In fact, the White supremacists did not have a permit, but had a judge’s order allowing them to be at Emancipation Park. Notwithstanding Trump’s statement, the counter-protesters actually had a permit to use two nearby parks as rallying points and needed no permit to counter-demonstrate at Emancipation Park. Here’s the full explanation:

  22. It’s hard to beat my hometown of Portland, Oregon, for antifa/political correctness/alt-right hypocrisy, violence, and idiocy–and the utter befuddlement of the masses. In fact, it feels an awful lot like Weimar Germany just prior to the Nazi party’s takeover.

  23. The way I see the events at Charlottesville is that a group opposed to the cleansing of our heritage legally got a permit to protest what amounts to doing what the Taliban, Al Qaida, ans ISIS do…destroy any vestige of the local civilization. Whether it was issued to white supremacists or they tagged along for the ride I really don’t know, but people of that ilk are a tiny number and greatly marginalized. Being anti Semitic and anti minority is just not something to be proud about.

    What bothers me is people from anarchist Antifa and the cop killers of Black Lives Matter showed up looking for a fight and they got one. BOTH sides were wrong, as President Trump originally said. But that wasn’t good enough for the almighty media, who determined that Trump didn’t speak out soon enough, he didn’t single out who they deemed to be the guilty parties, and, all puffed up with righteous indignation, they threw Trump under the bus big time.

    Antifa is no new group borne out of Berkeley earlier this year. They are supposedly anti fascist but they label anybody they don’t agree with as fascist, so they are themselves fascist. They are anti Trump and anti anyone who voted for Trump. They shout down conservatives and politicians and commit violence in doing so. They are anarchists and one side of the coin. On the other side are the cop killers BLM. How many cops have been assassinated since BLM came into existence? These groups aren’t as morally reprehensible as white supremacists. If you believe that you’re smoking something.

    Those were the counter protesters who, to this day, have never been identified as such by the media, including Fox News. Roger Ailes must be turning in his grave. And the politicians, who are only concerned with getting reelected, don’t have the balls to name them either, so, in effect, these two scurrilous groups have gotten a free pass and the white supremacists have gotten more press than they would have ever dreamed of getting. We need term limits for these spineless politicians.

    All I know is that I see this once great country made up of imperfect human beings being torn apart by political correctness and split down the middle. If divide and conquer is a military strategy, we are now divided. Does anybody have an idea who the conqueror might be?

  24. Dinesh D’Souza’s has a new book ‘The Big Lie: Exposing the Nazi Roots of the American Left’. Based on reading only about 10% of it it seems to be a pretty good background for understanding what is going on.

  25. I do not believe there is any upsurge in Nazi sympathies or old-timey Democrat-KKK sympathies. There are just the inevitable handful of attention whores who can’t resist the standing offer from our Democrat-controlled media of wall-to-wall national media coverage if they will just proclaim racism and say that they support President Trump. It is FAKE NEWS, manufactured by our fraudulent politicized media because they think it advances their present war on American democracy. They despise the will of the people and will do anything to try to overturn it. They are every bit as bad as the Antifa fascists they are aligning with.

  26. If there is any remaining doubt of the insanity gripping America (or the source of that insanity), liberal sports media giant ESPN evidently has taken the stance that even the names of some “on air” reporters will stoke negative reactions with their audience.

    How are we going to treat the memory of George Washington Carver? Under the new (?) rule book for liberal/progressives even names are enough to evoke hatred and removal. Final chapter of Saul Alinsky’s old rule book?

    Maybe we can save monuments to George Washington Carver by simply renaming him Barack Obama Carver and changing the plaque.

    Or, maybe the Washington Monument can be saved by telling these brilliant crusaders that the “Father of Our Country” was actually named after G.W. Carver. I doubt any of this crowd would snap on the absurdity.

  27. I stand with Mr. shawn on the freedom of speech issues. As noisome as the opinions and statements of the White supremacists may be, they have the right to peacefully express them, just as the counter-protesters have the right to peacefully express the opposite opinion. It is, indeed, the obligation of government to take reasonable steps to protect them from one another, but their exact obligation is very complicated and somewhat uncertain. I’ve not studied the question about whether the city can or cannot be be blamed for not fulfilling that responsibility, so have no opinion on that issue. See these sources for a discussion of some of the considerations:

  28. At some point these groups are likely to start shooting at each other with their ARs. I wonder if that might not make some people happy. But for sure expect calls for gun control and bans if/when it does happen.

    I agree both sides have violent people. As to organization, both are loosely organized, but I suspect antifa is more organized and contains more committed members.

    The latest move of the media was a bit of a shock even to me. Not letting Robert Lee, a Chinese American, broadcast a University of Va football game has to a new over the top in political correctness. Maybe the snowflake left wants to have all people with the surname Lee change it to something like Lea. I mean the very name must drive snowflakes to their safe space.

  29. I sent President Trump a hand-written letter. It went something like this;

    Here is what a President following the Constitution would have said after being asked about Charlottesville. “What happened in Charlottesville is a local matter. It is being handled by the local authorities. The federal government has no role in this matter.”

    My guess is that President Grover Cleveland would have stated something like that. He believed the people should support the government, the government should not financially support the people.

    Now for some perspective. We are still a wealthy country. We aren’t worried about obtaining clean water. We aren’t worried about getting enough to eat, so we worry about other things. I just heard Hillary Clinton complaining about Donald Trump making her feel uncomfortable when he stood behind her during a debate. Last week I viewed a youtube video where Ezra Levant talked about meeting an Islamic State sex slave. After being raped 240 times, she stopped counting. I wonder what that sex slave would think of Hillary Clinton’s problems.

    This world is cursed.

  30. Re an impending civil war: The only people who think this might happen are the people who spend all their time with their heads buried in the news and, especially, at sites like this one. (And, I must admit, I’m one of those, though I think the civil war rhetoric is nonsense.)

    When I go out and about, shopping and running errands, going to restaurants and (far less often than I’d like) theaters, getting my truck serviced, and volunteering what I _don’t_ hear or experience is any discussion or angst about any of these issues. A civil war would require a critical mass of strong opinion. It would have to be an everyday discussion in the press and on the street. That’s just not happening. People want life to be normal and the angst of the left-wing and right-wing simply aren’t going to prevail.

    Indeed, the corporate advisors on the various councils who have resigned since Trump failed to deal adequately with the White supremacists in Charlottesville speak volumes. The greatest inhibiting force on a civil war in the US is simple: it would be bad for business. While those in the military-industrial complex might profit from it (though most likely not due to fragmentation and disruption in supply), the Amazons, Macys, FedEx’s, and Subways would not.

    That’s not a bad thing.

    The idea of a civil war is DOA. While a few extremists on the right and left might kinda want it, it’s going to have to get a whole lot worse (and, more importantly, inconveniencing) before that’s going to happen. So long as the average household can get its Blue Apron deliveries on time, it’s not going to happen.

    That doesn’t mean that lone nut jobs will not try to start the war, just like Charles Manson tried to set off the Helter Skelter race war. He wasn’t successful. They won’t be either.

  31. A hearty AMEN brother to the blog post!

    I wonder if it’s going to take the insurance companies suing the various cities to collect reimbursement for damages caused by police failure to act to see the end of the “give them space” approach to demonstrations/riots (is there a difference anymore?).

    The various heads of LLEAs need to realize that they’re going to get negative press almost regardless of what they do. They DO have a sworn duty to protect.

    Someone mentioned the Chicago 7 earlier. After that had played out in the courts, one of the 7 appeared on Carson and flatly admitted that they’d violated Federal Law by crossing state lines with the intent of causing a riot. He was extremely happy that they’d drawn the judge they did and managed to get everything eventually thrown out of court. Too bad no one bothered to use his admission to re-open the case (if that was possible).

    Reading (re-reading?) the early parts of “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” might be a good idea for previews of coming attractions. A Len Deighton novel named ‘Winter” might also be helpful. It provides a lot of information about just how bad things were in Germany after the abdication of the Kaiser. We really have no comprehension of how bad it was. Hopefully, we’ll not see it here. I knew folks who lived in Germany at the time and the stories they told were simply awful.

  32. Liberal Dave,

    When you said-”Indeed, the corporate advisors on the various councils who have resigned since Trump failed to deal adequately with the White supremacists in Charlottesville speak volumes.”-I’m sure you felt this was a collective act of disgust with President Trump. Let me offer up another explanation.

    These corporate leaders have a duty to their collective businesses first (the ones who pay them the big bucks for making good decisions to make the stock holders money). Company first, public service second. These icons of capitalism did not get to where they are without going through the years of shakedowns of corporations by “civil rights” leaders like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who went company to company leading demonstrations disrupting productivity, boycotting them, the media dutifully reporting the corporate sins against African-Americans, not ending until negotiated ransoms were paid through back channels to make the “protests” go away. If the corporate CEO’s were slow to respond with cash, the protesters moved to the front yards of their homes, intimidating and threatening their families.

    Yes, these advisors fled their unpaid volunteer positions. Maybe because they think Trump is stoking hate as you intimate, but I would submit that their knowledge of the history of being the target of these movements, they are terrified of the dangers to their companies and families presented by these new, infinitely more violent groups like BLM,, Occupy Wall Street, anarchists, and anti-fa.

    They are paid to identify possible threats to the bottom-line and nip it in the bud.

  33. Civil war is coming. Not because of nutters like the combatants in the street. Not even because of leaders like Trump and Obama. It is coming because the country is divided into mutually incompatible halves. The two halves live in different places, consume different media, have different fundamental beliefs (e.g. religion vs lack thereof), have different pastimes etc., marry within their own groups and are unwilling to tolerate the differences. The left has long had this lack of tolerance but it is spreading in the right and the uncommitted now, in reaction. The self-destruction of various mediating institution like political parties, the media, the education establishment, corporations, sports teams, the government itself, have fed this process. I think only the military is over the 50% mark in trust.

    The resulting explosion, when it happens, will be far worse than CWI. It will be more like the Mexican or Russian Revolutions. If you want something closer to home look at what happened in Missouri from the 1850s to the 1870s. If massive bloodshed is to be avoided, we need to peacefully partition the country.

  34. Dennis: While I don’t agree with everything in your post, your ultimate conclusion was actually what I meant by my point about “speak volumes”: I have no idea whether or not they resigned in genuine, heartfelt moral outrage (my wholly-irrelevant guess is that some did and some did not), but I am certain that most or all of them resigned because not doing so could be bad for their business. Indeed, that was the point of that paragraph.

  35. Liberal Dave,

    I agree with you, the country is not ready for civil war yet. Our lives are still too good, and the war would be bad for business. Many people don’t even care about politics. They don’t want to understand it or talk about it because it is so divisive. Even during our Revolution in 1775, historians say a third of the colonists were for it, a third were against it, and a third didn’t care.

    When I imagine different disaster scenarios, I really have no fear of what my fellow Americans will do. I know we will come together to help each other. That is, unless there is a shortage of food. If we ever have a shortage of food, I expect people to become monsters. That’s when we will all need our guns.

    That said, our nation has not been this divided since 1968. I also agree with what Richard wrote, but he describes Americans who care about politics, not the many who do not.

  36. The statues have existed since the early 1900’s (admittedly, many of them were erected during the Jim Crow era, as an anti-integration statement), and they have never, AFAIK, been a big issue before. Was there a movement to remove them during the eight years of the previous administration?

    If the statues had been demolished five years ago, there would still be riots now, just over something else. The professional activists need an issue to justify their sinecures. The limousine liberals and country club Republicans hate Trump, because they fear that common sense, reasonable immigration reform will cut off their supply of cheap labor. Third wave feminists hate Trump because he does not have internal reproductive organs. And a lot of able-bodied, young adult welfare recipients are angry at the idea of having to trade in their free cell phones for alarm clocks.

    Undoubtedly, there were well-intentioned, peaceable protesters on both sides, and there were trouble-makers, armed to the teeth and looking for a fight, on both sides. Trump was right to point that out. And he specifically said that his phrase, “fine people” did not include the KKK or the Nazis.

    The POTUS takes an oath to uphold the Constitution. That includes the First Amendment, which, as Oliver Wendell Holmes said, protects “the thought we hate.”

    In April, Howard Dean tweeted that the 1A does not protect “hate speech.” Uh…it kind of does. A Bill of Rights that only protects popular, politically correct, non-controversial speech is about as useful as a solar-powered sun lamp.

    I unsubscribed to Care2 when they wanted me to sign a petition asking Trump to exclusively condemn the right-wing violence while ignoring the leftist violence. And they want him to refer to the car crash (about which all of the facts were not yet known) as a terrorist attack.

    After eight years of “workplace violence,” “gun violence,” “spontaneous protests,” and “unknown motives,” suddenly the president has an obligation to use the term, “terrorist attack.”

  37. Mr. Ayoob,

    Thank you for this posting this. What you say is 100% accurate . You are one of the few who is seeing the true facts and reason in this event.

  38. There is this:

    It is not confirmed from official sources but it does crystallise a lot of the thoughts I have floating around about the “coincidences” such as the right wing applying for a permit, the authorities knowing well in advance about when, where and how the demonstration was going to be held and coincidentally an army of Antifa – many from out of state – just happen to be in the vicinity armed with baseball bats etc.

    I’m starting NOT to believe in coincidences …

  39. @ Liberal Dave:

    “The idea of a Civil War is DOA.”

    Left-Wing ideology is based upon unrealistic (and very optimistic) views of human nature. Liberal Dave, being a proper leftist, is (therefore) very optimistic about the outcome of the current wave of left-wing socialism in America and, as a result, pessimistic about the chances of things deteriorating down to the level of violence and warfare as his statement (above) shows. His views remind me of views of another “Happy-go-Lucky” leftist which are given below:

    “The settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace. This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine. Some of you, perhaps, have already heard what it contains but I would just like to read it to you: ‘ … We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.'”

    British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain
    30 September 1938

  40. As to the “racial” aspects of this recent unrest I would like to offer a quote from a very astute observer of this kind of situation.
    “There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy, and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. … There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don’t want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public.” — Booker T. Washington in his 1911 book, My Larger Education
    Whatever you may think of professor Washington, he has a valid point, and can we all say Rev. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, et al?.

  41. In thinking over my immediate comment (above) about PM Chamberlain, I realize that my comparison is a poor one. Mr. Chamberlain certainly was not a leftist. He was a moderate, establishment politician with vast experience. Sort of the “Mitch McConnell” of his day. He adopted a policy of appeasement out of fear rather than optimism about human nature.

    PM Chamberlain was rather like a man who hears shouting outside of his front door one day. He goes outside only to discover himself trapped by the mentally defective teenage son of his next-door neighbor. The boy is shouting incoherently and waving a machete around. The man is afraid to run because he does not want to be stabbed in the back. He is afraid to tackle the boy and disarm him because he does not want to be cut. So, he adopts a policy of appeasement. He pretends to be understanding of whatever nonsense the boy is spouting. He speaks calmly and tries to talk the boy down. Above all, he wants to calm the boy down and get him to lay down the machete.

    PM Chamberlain woke up one day to find that a lunatic (Herr Hitler) was loose in Europe. Furthermore, this lunatic was heavily armed with the Germany Military. There was nowhere to run and Chamberlain was afraid to confront the lunatic directly. He was afraid of “setting him off”. So, he adopted a policy of appeasement in the hope that this would “calm things down” until the situation improved. Perhaps by the removal of the lunatic from power by his own people.

    The problem with a policy of appeasement is that it almost never works against political lunatics. A political lunatic views appeasement as “weakness” and is only encouraged to take things to the next level. That is exactly what Hitler did.

    We face a similar situation in the USA today. The American Left has sat in the “echo chamber” for so long that they totally believe the PC crap that they have peddled for years. The Leftist Democratic Party has gone totally “Loony-Tunes”.
    Moderate, establishment Republicans, like Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, know that they are dealing with mentally unbalanced people in the current Democratic Party.

    Unfortunately, like Hitler or the mentally defective teenager (in the above comparison), these nuts are also heavily armed. The Leftists have totally penetrated the National News Media and have “weaponized” it. The Democrats now use the mainstream media as a “Sword and Shield”. A sword to attack their political opponents and a shield to protect themselves from any counter-charges of wrong-doing.

    That is why the Republicans are so impotent despite controlling both Houses of Congress. They are afraid to challenge the Democrats directly. They know the Leftists are totally crazy and will unleash the news media and aim it at anyone who confronts them. President Trump is the only politician with the cojones to take on the Democrats directly. They see how the Leftists have unleashed the news media upon Trump in return. They abjectly fear having the news media unleashed upon themselves. So, like Chamberlain, the establishment Republicans have adopted a policy of appeasement. They avoid saying or doing anything that will “set the loony Leftists off”. Like Chamberlain, they are hoping that the Democrats and the news media will get some “self-help” and get back sane again.

    However, I expect that this Republican version of appeasement will not work any better than Chamberlain’s did. As can be plainly seen, the Leftist nuts see appeasement as weakness. The weakness of the Republican Party is only encouraging the Leftist Loons to “take it to the next level”. Just like Hitler did.

  42. TN_MAN,

    If there is in fact a civil war looming, what are the objectives? Is it more complex than just left and right?

    For the sake of discussion, The War of Northern Aggression was between eleven states who wished to separate themselves from the Union and no longer be bound by its central governance, and the remaining loyal states. Whether the reasons for that separation was over state’s right to self governance or slavery, it arguably could have been a peaceful dissolution had the Union surrendered Ft. Sumter as being sovereign to the newly established country. We will never know. Or would it have devolved into guerrilla warfare/terror attacks by passionate factions as was witnessed on the border area between the western frontier states of Missouri and Kansas?

    What would be the objective of the opposing philosophies of this coming Civil War II? Dissolution of the nation into 2-3 or more separate countries? If not, would it not more resemble a coup or a revolution, with one side wanting to preserve the current form of governance, while the other would be attempting overthrow it?

    I’m afraid that the objective of the left is to cause chaos in enough cities with Anti-fa, Occupy, BLM, etc., that our politicians will come riding to the rescue in a way that favors them and theirs, not us.

  43. @ Dennis:

    “What would be the objective of the opposing philosophies of this coming Civil War II? Dissolution of the nation into 2-3 or more separate countries?”

    All oppressive movements share a characteristic. They all believe in a Utopian ideology which they think points the way to the future. They all believe that this vision of the future gives them a special ability and duty to lead the way forward. That, at this place and time, they are uniquely qualified for leadership of society.

    For example, the communists all believed in the ideology expounded by Marx. They believed that communism was the solution of the future. A solution that would correct the faults of capitalism and free the workers of the world from the cycle of exploitation and poverty. They believed in a Utopian vision of a “Worker’s Paradise”. That communist societies were superior and would, inevitably, rule the world. Therefore, they had a duty to help build this future. Anyone who got in the way of this future was to be swept away and crushed underfoot. Hence, the various communist movements were (inevitably) oppressive in nature.

    Similarly, the Nazis believed in the ideology laid out by Hitler. The true Nazi believed in the Utopian “Thousand Year Reich”. They believed that, as the Master Race, they had a unique duty to bring this future into existence. Anyone who got in the way of this future was to be swept away and crushed underfoot. Hence, the Nazi movement was oppressive in nature.

    Today, in the Middle East, you have a movement based upon the ideology of radical Islam. The “True Believer” knows that Allah is (inevitably) going to lead his chosen people into his Paradise. His will cannot be opposed by man. Therefore, it is the duty of his Holy Warriors to lead the Jihad that will establish this Utopian future. Anyone who gets in the way of this future is to be swept away and crushed underfoot. Thus, radical Islam is an oppressive ideology.

    Modern American Left-wing Socialism also has a Utopian vision for the future. They believe that America is a flawed Nation. A nation filled to the brim with racism, sexism and hatred. That these flaws arise from our troubled past. However, they know the way forward. They have a Utopian vision of what America can be under their guidance. Many believe that the old America must be swept away before this inevitable change can be made. The old Constitution needs to go. It needs to be replaced by a new one based upon modern Leftist principles. (See ). Because of their special vision of the future, the Leftists believe that they are uniquely qualified to lead America forward. Anyone who gets in the way of this future is to be swept away and crushed underfoot. Thus, modern American Left-wing Socialism is an oppressive ideology.

    So, what do the leftist want? Like any oppressive movement, they want to RULE. They don’t want to separate from the Red States. They want to conquer the Red States. They want to turn the “fly-over” area of the country BLUE. From their point-of-view, they need to force the Red States to turn away from the racist and hateful polices of the past and follow as they lead American into their glorious vision of a future utopia. They already control the news media which gives them the pipeline for their propaganda. They largely control the education system. So, they believe it is just a matter of “education and indoctrination” before they will be the permanent majority. Indeed, with the demographics of this country, they believe that their rule is inevitable.

    Once they have the POWER that they crave, they will sweep away the old Constitution and the old forms and lead the entire country into a hard-left turn. Their Messiah, Barack Obama, showed the way. Now they must go forward in the path he indicated. They believe that a leftist utopia is near at hand. They are bringing the future!

    If Civil War II occurs, it will be caused by the inevitable resistance and backlash against this current leftist oppressive movement. That is another characteristic of oppressive movements. Their oppression inevitably triggers a backlash by those who they oppress.