Not long ago, a young man turned into a mad dog mass murderer at an Idaho fast food joint, shooting multiple people until he came under return fire from two of his victims. One was an off-duty Idaho State Trooper and another was a 24-year-old armed citizen. Neither hit the killer, but they put enough fear into him that he changed channels and fled, killing himself when responding police closed in on him.
There would have been four potential victims returning fire on him, but one was a former cop carrying a pistol with an empty chamber who was shot down by the murderer before he could rack a torpedo into the launch tube. Lesson: carry a gun that’s ready to shoot, and if you’re not comfortable with an autoloader in the chamber, consider a revolver. Another was a courageous young woman who picked up the pistol the killer had started with and dropped when it jammed, but couldn’t clear the malfunction and get the thing to work against its vicious original owner. Lesson: if you’re in a situation where a mass murderer is doing his thing, make sure you can get a picked-up gun up and running. These comments in no way denigrate the bravery of the citizen-rescuers mentioned.
Neither the trooper with his compact semi-automatic pistol nor the armed citizen who fired from a distance estimated to be as much as 90 yards on a moving target were able to score a hit. Nonetheless, their gunfire appears to have interrupted the murder spree and greatly reduced the casualty count. In the gun community, a lot of keyboard commandoes questioned the armed citizen’s choice of weapons: an FN 5.7mm pistol with a silencer.
A full-time caregiver for a handicapped relative, the citizen in question had chosen the suppressed weapon with subsonic ammunition at least in part because he knew if he had to fire in proximity to his mobility-challenged charge, he didn’t want to deafen the patient. Some “net ninjas” questioned his choice of weapon.
The criticism could induce vomiting. Each of the above-mentioned people are heroes who went toward the danger instead of away from it, and in doing so profoundly mitigated the danger and the casualty count.
Their courage vastly outweighs the criticism of those who weren’t in the line of fire. Those four people are heroes, all, in this writer’s opinion. Learn the lessons, but don’t crap on the heroes who delivered them.
Mas, you are right on, I agree, thanks for the post! Those of us who have been in situations like that are not as quick to criticize, at least I would like to think so.
My favorite pistol for a necessary gunfight will probably be a 1911 because of the overall simplicity of operation and cleaning, along with the excellent trigger. My favorite compact pistol, however, is one with a thumb safety that fits under the slide, plus a safety on the trigger. I pay constant attention to the thumb safety, and despite continual carefulness I sometimes have found the thumb safety in the fire position. Most of the time it is correctly on safe, though, cooperating with the trigger safety. I have never had an ND with the dual safeties, and do not expect one, partly because of continual awareness that something CAN go wrong some time. So I carry full time with a round in the chamber and check the thumb safety whenever I go to handle the pistol, and then some.
There were multiple courageous people there that day, from those who engaged/attempted to engage the killer to one who closed with and spoke to him. Jordan Salinas has stated that he had a subsonic 5.7 round in the chamber and Black Dragon Fang rounds in the magazine. He also had a malfunction that he was able to clear. The end result would have been much worse had no armed citizens been present.
Amen
The Internet commandos run rampant with their ignorance. They should learn that the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun
The crucial “First 30 Seconds”! That’s all we’ve got to limit the carnage. Excellent book by Ed Monk
Amen!
I saw him speak at one of our Texas Handgun Association conferences and still remember it.
Spot on ! I didn’t read up on any followup on the A&#*@%e about the reason for the shooting , I care not about him. I agree the attempts from others were heroic. Glad he took his own life, no taxpayer funded trial & care the rest of his natural life.
Yes, it is real easy to be critical from the comfort of ytour keyboard. Most who are have never been there and done that and those who have suffer from short term memory loss. We need more like those who at least tried to put him down. These people should be reconized for their heroizm, not bad mouthed as seen in some news media.
The armed citizen’s foresight to carry a gun and courage to use it in defense of others far, far outweigh any keyboard commando’s critique of his choice of weapon. But, if we must discuss such matters, the 5.7 is a low recoil round that is well suited to fast follow-up shots and confidence in his weapon is a true force multiplier for any defender. At the distances he was shooting, only the most highly skilled pistoleros could be expected to reliably hit a moving person. A near miss with a 5.7 is just as distracting and does no less damage to the target than does a near miss with a .45 Winchester Magnum. This case makes the point that incoming rounds, even when they do not put the perpetrator down, generally stop the slaughter of innocents by giving the perp something else to think about.
PS: If you carry a less powerful round than I do, you are nothing more than pathetic wimps and if you carry a round more powerful than I do, you are over-compensating mall ninjas. I, and only I, carry the one true round that is perfect for all defensive needs. It is a closely guarded secret that Mas shares only with graduates of his highest-level class. Otherwise, I could tell you what it is.
I saved an image of Jordanhs profile while aimi?g at the shooter. I plan to make an embroided patch of it for my range hat.
While it is just him pictured anybody I talk to about it will hear about what Heroes the other people were also.
Ive always admired the 5.7 round but never liked the design of the FN pistol. S&W (in my opinion) makes a very useable one.
I suspect there will be a lot more interest in the 5.7 cartridge.
I have friends who carry like that, and I will send this their way.
At least I got them to stop the open carry thing, now this may take care of the empty chamber issue. Well done as always.
Quote of the Day:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” – Theodore Roosevelt – From a Speech delivered on 23 April 1910.
I have a hard time coming up with a better option than 5.7×28 for a 90 yard shot on a moving target, at least on the pistol shelves in my safe:
– A cursory AI-assisted query says 5.7 would have 2-3″ of drop, compared with 9-15″ for 9mm (124 grain, it says 9-12″ for +P, more for slower standard loads).
– Running at 10 mph, perpendicular to the marksman, that’s somewhere between 3-4.5 feet of lead required (a lot more than I would have guessed.)
– Do any of those keyboard commandos have experience shooting a pistol at that distance, or at a moving target? Aside from some whacky USPSA stages, I absolutely don’t. My range doesn’t even have pistol bays that deep, and it’s too hot to rig up a mover like that for practice.
– For someone with experience hunting game with handguns, this would be more in the realm of reasonableness — a walking/trotting deer, for example, could be an ethical shot for a marksman who knows what he’s doing.
My current carry handgun is in 5.7×28 FN caliber. However, I am not carrying it in expectation of making 90 yard shots! What attracted me is the 20 round capacity in a package that I can carry concealed. I used to carry a S&W J-frame in 38 Special along with a couple of loaded speed strips. So, 15 rounds of ammo assuming time to do two (2) reloads. My current carry pistol gives me 20 rounds with no (zero) reloads. 🙂
Frankly, up close, I would have more faith in a hit with the 38 Special (assuming good defense ammo) than in a single hit with the 5.7×28. Still, speed and recoil control are much better in the semi-automatic pistol compared with the J-frame. So, the theory is that, with the 5.7×28, I will be able to put two or three hits on an attacker, versus a single hit from a 38 Special, within the same time-frame. That should make up the difference.
I sincerely hope that I will never have to put this theory to the test!
I would like to suggest a phrase to describe such heroes … On-Site Responders.
First Person Responder elicits images of the government employees (police, firefighters, etc) who are called to a scene.
On-Site Responders are those folks who are at the scene as it erupts and who take on their civic duty to intercede. “First Person Responder” often muddies the general public’s perception of just who took action.
I like that term.
That’s a good description. I’ve been using “reactor,” as a person who doesn’t have to respond to the scene to intervene.
ANYONE putting themselves in harms way to stop the murder of the innocent is not only HERO material but should be privileged through the state to receive appropriate recognition/compensation for their willingness to step up and thwart evil. How about a lifetime elimination of taxes on ammo and firearms. 🇺🇲 ⚖️ 👍
How about we end that sentence four words sooner? 😀
I don’t question anyone’s choice of weapon if it works and they’re willing to use it when necessary.
He could have been carrying a Hi-Point or Cambodian Hi-Power knock-off. If it fired reliably and put rounds on target (or close to it, at that distance), he deserves praise for responding when most would flee. Period. Full stop.
And why would anyone question the 5.7 pistol or round, anyway? There’s nothing inherently wrong with either of them at any pistol distance, and as John M notes above, at 90 yards there are FAR worse choices in terms of recoil, lead, bullet drop, etc. I’d even go so far as to say, his firearm was about as close to ideal for that scenario as you can get, short of carrying a rifle.
“Another was a courageous young woman who picked up the pistol the killer had started with and dropped when it jammed, …”
That reminds of the citizen who picked up a California Highway Patrol officer’s revolver and fired on the killers at Newhall, California in 1970.
More recently in Australia, a man picked up one killer’s shotgun but didn’t know how to work it.
In the world of the ordinary Armed Citizen, you will not be able to chose the time or place of the confrontation; it will be chosen for you. You will engage with the tool you have at the time. Learn to run what you have, all of them. Find the strengths and limitations. Hopefully, you will never have to use that knowledge and skill; if you have no other choice, you will be confidently prepared to do what you need to do.
I came to that conclusion a long time ago when studying gunfight dynamics in the 1990’s after I obtained my NY license. Although my primary interest was handgun hunting at the time, I chose a Colt stainless Delta Gold Cup, with typical 1990’s tactical/accuracy mods for deer hunting (10mm is quite up to the task with full power loads) and borrowed my late Father’s S&W M-17 (K 22) for small game hunting. I learned to run the 1911 in 10mm on a tactical range; the K 22 got paired with some HKS speedloaders (yes, they make K-22 speedloaders) and I learned to run that wheelgun in a tactical mode.
The why is kinda cool. Back in the early 90’s there was a typical “corner gas mart” otherwise known as a “stop ‘n rob” to use the terminology back then, just down the road from my house. I frequented the place; staffed with cute, friendly women who sold cheap cigarettes, gas and beer with a smile. Unique for New York State, they were not fazed by bearded characters clad in camo (as in hunters) who were carrying (Obviously printing; a 6″ K 22 in a Bianchi X-15 is not easy to conceal.). The clerks occasionally mentioned local scumbags would harass and steal; one even threatened armed robbery. Having armed citizens circulating through kept the antisocial element from displaying bad behavior.
As to my choice of handgun; the primary mission was to collect a limit of gray squirrels. The K 22, loaded with 22 HP, was quite suitable for the task. Secondarily, defense would be within the realm of an extremely precise, easy to shoot S&W K-frame wheelgun. No less than Maj. Gen. Julian Hatcher once stated that American police officers would be better off armed with S&W K 22’s; the logic was that the 22 lr. Is inexpensive, so practice was cheap, recoil level is non-existent or minimal, so practice to acquire skill was funand the revolver was easy to shoot double or single action, making hits where they need to be easy.
I stii exercise that philosophy.