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SHOT SHOW 2018, PART 2 — 17 Comments

  1. I’d love to hear your comparison of the Ruger Security-9 versus Springfield Armory XDm. They’re roughly same size, same capacity, Springfield’s known for the same kind of reliability. How about it, Mas?

    • Glenn and others.

      Why not buy an XDm 40 S&W 4.5 so if you want you can swap out the .40 barrel for a .357 sig or 9mm drop in Storm Lake barrel? I’ve shot an XDm with the 357 sig barrel dropped in and it never misfired and was very accurate.

      3 weapons for the price of one(plus barrel costs of course).

  2. Ask Ruger if the PC9 carbine will be convertible to 22 TCM. In the low price 9 full size pistol I like the Walther Creed enough to buy one. The real shoot out in the low price 9s is between the new Ruger Security 9, the S&W SD9 VE and the Walther Creed.

  3. I believe the pistol caliber carbines are the future of home defense long guns. They just make sense. Going back to the early days of repeating cartridge firearms, those that relied on their weapons for defense and food, and didn’t have the funds for specialty weapons for every conceivable scenario, saw the wisdom of a rifle that shot the same ammunition as their sidearm, but greatly extended it’s effective range.

    My first three deer were taken with a 38/40 Mod.1894 Marlin using the lower powered factory rounds labeled “pistol only” (there were higher powered loads available for “rifle only” but hard to find). I bought a Kel-Tec sub 2000 when they first hit the market. Took 6 months on a waiting list. It’s a love/hate relationship. It looks cheap, it feels cheap, has crappy sights and trigger pull, but, darn it, it works. Never had a jam or failure to fire. Despite it’s mushy trigger pull and sorry sights, it is pretty damn accurate (3″ 50yd groups, which I could never do with my Sig pistol). My chronograph tells me that the 16″ barrel increases the 9mm velocity about 200fps, placing it in the .357 mag range of power.

    I’m sure the Ruger offering will be of higher quality and fill the same niche. If so, I’m guessing the re-sale value of my Kel-Tec will drop at the same time I’m tempted to buy another carbine. What info I’ve read on it says the price will put it in the low end AR range (5oo-600 dollars). It will come with a mag well drop in adapter, secured with screws (I believe) to use Glock magazines. I’m hoping that they offer a non-take down model with a lower price for those on a budget.

    • @ Dennis – I also love the pistol caliber carbines (PCC) for home defense. I keep a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 in 9 mm for that purpose. I have only put a few hundred rounds through it (maybe 400) but, so far, I have not had a single malfunction with it. It seems to run with any kind of ammo that I put in it.

      As you say, the longer barrel gives about 200 FPS more velocity. For example, I shot some 9 mm +P Golden Saber 124 gr. ammo out of a 4 inch S&W pistol and then the 16.25 inch Sub-2000. The pistol gave a velocity of 1185 fps. The carbine gave 1376 fps. Muzzle energy jumped from 387 ft-lbs. to 521 ft-lbs for the carbine. That is a 35% increase in energy and, as you say, puts this 9mm +P round into the .357 Mag range.

      What people often overlook is muzzle pressure. A .223 round fired in an AR can give muzzle pressures over 10000 psi and a big, loud muzzle blast. A 9 mm round from a 4 inch barreled pistol gives about 5600 psi and significant muzzle blast. However, a 9 mm round fired in a carbine with a 16 inch barrel only has a muzzle pressure of about 600 psi and relatively low muzzle blast. I think that this is a significant factor when the weapon is to be used indoors for home defense and there is no time to put on ear protection.

      In my view, PCC’s need to be priced below entry-level AR’s and AK’s to be successful. You can pick these up for about $550 to $600 out-the-door. The Hi-Point and Kel-Tec carbines are successful because they sell in the $250 to $400 range and undercut the inexpensive assault rifles. The new Ruger PCC has a MSRP of $649. This is a bit too high in my opinion. Ruger sells the similar 10/22 take-down rifle for a MSRP of $459. Why is the 9 mm almost $200 more? I think a MSRP of $549 would have been much better.

      Of course, the actual street price will be less than $649. In my view, the street price needs to undercut the assault rifle prices (i.e. be less than $550) for the Ruger to be a success in the marketplace.

    • Dennis,

      I also like the pistol caliber carbine concept. It’s convenient to have multiple guns, but not a whole bunch of calibers to feed them. When possible, I buy two copies of the same gun, so they can act as back-ups for each other. I could even cannibalize the parts of one gun for the other, if I had to.

      I have three .357 Magnum revolvers, so I should buy a lever-action carbine to match them. In my fantasy life, I see myself in urban warfare against zombies with a Tommy gun in hand, and a 1911 on each hip. Fun, fun, fun.

      • Roger Willco,

        I ran across this little carbine on the internet that might interest you.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv6FK0kVKbU

        It resembles the Rossi/Taurus/Braztech Circuit Judge, but made by Brno in Czechoslovakia. Evidently it’s intended market is Australia where stringent gun laws restrict semi-auto’s. Interestingly enough, while meant to get around Australia’s laws, it would be illegal here in the U.S. because it would be classified a SBR (short barreled rifle). Anyhow, it’s a neat looking carbine, and maybe they will see fit to lengthen the barrel to make it legal here in the states.

    • Dennis – The only problem with revolver carbines, like this Brno one, is that they require you to put your forward hand in-front of the cylinder. This has always been a safety concern going all the way back the revolver rifles and carbines of the “Old West”. If that cylinder gets misaligned and the gun starts to “shave lead” then your hand and wrist can end up catching that lead. Even the normal loss of gas at the cylinder gap might be a concern with a high pressure cartridge like the .357 Mag if you forget and move your wrist too close.

      • TN_MAN,

        Your observation is correct. The Aussie You-Tuber mentioned that short coming. The Circuit Judge addressed this problem with deflectors. I have one of these and they are a blast (no pun intended) to shoot. While I would not recommend one as a main battle rifle, it has earned a niche as an easy accessible, moderate recoil, simple to employ, go to, home defense weapon for my wife. Five 000 buck pellets from each three inch .410 shell pattern around 3 inches at seven yds. Times five, that would be a bad day for any intruder. With the mounted red dot scope, it will group 2″ at 25yds all day long with my .45 Colt 255gr hardcast semi-wadcutters chronographed to be clocking 950fps.

    • I love my JR carbine. I have it in 9 mms. Last I knew, it could be had in 9, .40 s&w and .45 cap. And multiple magazine options.

      My first 250 rounds or so were at a steel plate shoot. A friend & I gave it an initial workout using various Flock magazines including the big one (33 round). Not a single problem to date.

      I would like a takedown. I bought 2 10/22 takedowns in SS (for under $400 each with case as I recall). I like them a lot for size when packing.

      There sure is advantage to common caliber and magazine, even just around the range plinking.

  4. I’m very impressed with Ruger’s SR9c that I bought a couple of months ago. It now has over 400 rounds through it without a single malfunction. If the Security 9 uses the same magazines, I could wind up with my second 9mm since the 1980s.

  5. If Ruger would just offer the carbine in 10mm, I would buy one. Yeah I know that Ruger doesn’t have a 10mm but Glock does and since they offer a Glock mag well…
    Otherwise for my needs, a lever in 44M or some such would appear better.

    • Richard, Ruger actually does have a 10mm pistol, their first commercially offered. It came out last year, in their SR1911 series. However, it takes 1911 10mm magazines, and I’m not sure if the new carbine design will adapt to single stack magazines. (Interesting factoid: Bill Ruger, Sr. told me he and his team had designed their P90 pistol to be a 10mm in anticipation that FBI’s late 1980s adoption of same would spur a market trend. It didn’t, and I don’t think a 10mm in P90 format ever left the Ruger factory, but those design parameters are one reason the P90 was such a helluva durable .45 ACP pistol.)

    • Richard – This new Ruger Carbine is basically a blow-back carbine despite the clever “Dead Blow” feature. I suspect that the significantly higher recoil forces of the 10 mm round would be too much for the current design.

      In addition to just swapping our the mag well, Ruger would have to either (A) redesign the carbine to use a locked-breech action or, else (B) re-design the carbine to use a significantly heavier bolt if it is kept blow-back.

      Either way, it would be a significant re-design to chamber this carbine for 10 mm. Given that the 10 mm round is seen as a “niche” cartridge, I rather doubt that Ruger would think that the market demand is worth the effort.

    • Richard, I just noticed that JR Carbine now has a 10mm model now. I really like my 9mm. (The down side? They are in NY. I hate to support NY in any way since the SAFE Act fiasco. They are Upstate so I have empathy for their situation and for my relatives there … )

      http://www.justrightcarbines.com/

  6. Does anybody else think that Remington and Mossberg may be heading to the really short barrel mag fed non-shotgun shotgun? They have dipped their toes in already.