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SHOT Show Day Four — 8 Comments

  1. Great lineup. But I think you highlighted the wrong D60 drum mag. The new one this year is for .308 on the AR10 platform and retails for $149.95. The info you provide still fits though.

  2. Doc, you are correct. Shown is the D60 in 5.56, I did not see the new one in .308 as the booth was swamped when I was there. Sorry I could not bring it to you.

  3. Three rifles do not have a description, lost in translation I guess. They are from Rock River Arms. My apologies!!

  4. Franklin Armory’s Providence is the one that caught my attention. An innovative end run around all the states that have a ban on semi-auto weapons. I assume the heavy trigger pull is due to the fact that the (1) empty cartridge in the chamber needs to be extracted and ejected, and (2) the fresh round is rotated into position and inserted into the chamber by the trigger pull before the trigger breaks and releases the firing pin. That kind of trigger pull would work better in a shouldered rifle (my guess). I see they are promoting this for pistol cartridges since a rifle round and its long range use would suffer from the heavy trigger. This is something for close in work.

    I guess it’s primary usage would be in building clearance/home defense. LEO’s and military use would be nil since they have access to all the semi-auto and full auto weapons they want regardless of the state/local jurisdiction. A shouldered weapon with this action would be a good home defense weapon since most folks accuracy is better with a shouldered weapon than with a handgun. A 16″ barrel would probably give the 9mm 124 gr. round .357 magnum velocity (and then some).

    I wonder if this mechanism provides any reliability enhancements over a true gas operated or blow-back action? I would think if you got a dud round you would just pull the trigger again. However, if you got a squib round with the bullet stuck in your barrel, and you just pulled the trigger again – bad day for all involved. No different than a revolver or semi-auto, though.

    Mas, thanks for all the feedback from your shot show stint. Makes it really interesting for those of us that can’t go to this great event.

    • TW – “A 16-inch barrel would probably give the 9mm 124 gr. round .357 magnum velocity (and then some)”

      One certainly does gain some velocity from the 9mm round when fired in a longer, carbine barrel. However, the gain is not as great as one sees from firing the .357 magnum round in a carbine nor does it truly outperform the 357 round even from a long-barreled revolver.

      I used my chronograph to do a little check of the gain made from a longer carbine barrel. On the same day and under the same conditions, I fired some ammo through both a 4 inch barreled 9mm pistol and a 16.1 inch barreled kel-tec carbine. Here is my results:

      Federal 9mm 115 gr. Std Pressure 9BP round:

      Average velocity 4 inch barrel = 1127 FPS
      Average velocity 16 inch barrel = 1329 FPS

      Remington Golden Saber Bonded 9mm 124 gr. +P round:

      Average velocity 4 inch barrel = 1185 FPS
      Average velocity 16 inch barrel = 1376 FPS

      Hornady 135 Gr. Std. Pressure Critical Duty Round:

      Factory rated at 1010 FPS from 4 inch barrel (did not test in my own gun)
      Average velocity 16 inch barrel = 1094 FPS

      So, while the 9mm gains some velocity from the longer barrel and, with the Remington +P ammo, it approached .357 Mag velocities (from a 4 inch revolver), the “and then some” part does not work out. Note that full power 357 ammo is usually rated at about 1450 FPS with a 125 gr. bullet from a 4 inch or longer barreled revolver.

      The fact is that the 9mm round can never truly exceed the 357 Magnum since they both operate at similar SAAMI pressures but the 357 round has so much greater powder capacity. The greater powder capacity of the 357 Mag round means that it can always be loaded “hotter” then the 9mm.

      This is not to say that the velocity gain is useless. The above Remington +P load, from either the pistol or the carbine, has the power to be effective. The muzzle energy of this round was almost 390 Ft-Lbs. from the pistol and it exceeded 500 Ft-Lbs. from the carbine. I certainly would not want to be shot with either one!

      • Thanks TN_MAN for the feedback on velocities. I would have thought that the 9mm out of a 16″ barrel would have been around 1600 fps. At 1376 fps, I agree it approaches .357 mag. velocity, but does not match or exceed it. In any case, I would gladly use the 1376 fps over the 1185 fps if I was in a fight for my life. 🙂 Thanks again!

    • TW – There is one additional advantage to the carbine length barrel in 9mm. The longer barrel really lowers the muzzle pressure of the 9mm round. In a 4 inch barrel pistol, a 9mm 124 grain +P round will have a muzzle pressure of about 5000 to 5500 PSI depending upon the specific load and type of powder used. Fire that exact same ammo in a 16.1 inch carbine barrel and the muzzle pressure will drop to less then 1000 PSI or less than 20% that of the pistol barrel.

      Lower muzzle pressure means much less muzzle blast and muzzle flash. When one considers that one will probably be using a home defense carbine indoors under low light conditions and without time to put on ear protection, the greatly reduced muzzle flash and blast of the 9mm carbine is a real advantage that people seldom consider.

      People often recommend an AR style carbine in 5.56 NATO (or 223 Rem) for home defense but what they don’t consider is that such a weapon will have a muzzle pressure well over 10000 PSI. The muzzle blast and flash, especially indoors under low light conditions, will be very great. Possibly great enough to cause hearing loss for unprotected ears and a loss of night vision under low light conditions. Of course, it might blind and deafen the home invader too. However, that is not a tactical approach that appeals to me! 🙂

      So, unless one is willing to hang a suppressor onto the end of their AR, a 9mm carbine makes for a much, much better home defense weapon from the viewpoint of dangerous muzzle flash and blast. As noted above, when loaded with 9mm +P ammo, it offers good muzzle energy and stopping power too.

      Just one more point in favor of a 9mm carbine for home defense. Which is why I keep my Kel-Tec Sub-2000 carbine loaded and handy at my home!