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THE BEST OF INTENTIONS… — 40 Comments

  1. Everyone recognizes that the general population has a significant percentage of idiots and mental defectives along with cultural edge players. But the gun community largely thinks of itself as somehow devoid of these folks. There is one person in this world I know well enough to trust with a gun. ME. I am honestly in fear at the range. While I like the political aspects of open carry if I saw someone on the street with an AR or even a pistol I would go in another direction. Even when I was in LE I saw more stupid gun behavior than I liked.

  2. A tough nut to crack.
    However, I am not sure that armed military inside a recruitment center could protect from a drive by shooter, or be a deterrent.
    I see that theaters are back in the news.

  3. All state governors need to decree that all “gun-free-zones,” with posted signs or not, must have at least two armed security guards when other folks are present. Vetted and qualified volunteer guards would be OK. National Guard troops may be required to protect various non-Guard offices. Administrators of gun-free-zones need to realize what they have on their hands.

  4. I agree with you Mas. Just like anarchists who show up at a peaceful protest to blend in and then turn violent, the wrong people might show up, playing the part as “Peacekeepers ” then turn violent. I applaud the well intentioned folks trying to help, however, there are too many negatives. A better idea is too contact your local,state, and Federal representatives, to ARM our military at military facilities.

  5. It’s past time to require, not just permit, military personnel to carry sidearms on duty. Even in the US, military facilities are becoming combat zones.

    This will require more training. One would expect everyone in the military to be familiar with firearms, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. The Marines should be the best since every Marine is supposed to be a rifleman regardless of his duty assignment. The army should be the same but, it appears, isn’t. I can understand the Navy and Air Force being less skilled since their primary weapons are ships and aircraft. If you can teach a civilian enough in a couple of days to qualify for a concealed carry permit, it should take no longer to (re)train military personnel. After that, it’s a matter of proper supervision by commanders to ensure safe procedures are followed.

    I like Kansas’ approach to gun free zones. If you want to ban firearms, you are required to provide security to ensure that the bad guys can’t take advantage of them.

  6. I was unaware an ar15 is now classified as a military weapon by mas. I thought it was just another civilian arm.

  7. Long Island Mike – Your comment reminded me of that line from the classic western “The Virginian” by Owen Wister.

    Mr. Wister observed that one can expect that, out of every half dozen men, one will be a fool.

    Looking around today, I have to conclude that Mr. Wister was an optimist! Either that or else the American gene pool has really thinned out over the last 100+ years!

  8. Good thoughts Mas, and I have to agree with Marc-Wi that arming the troops here at home probably will not happen with the current administration. In fact I would not be surprised to see the Gun Control thing raise its ugly head again on the recruiting station and also the latest theater shooting. Somehow I think these perps know that what they are doing is leading to attempted gun confiscation again.

  9. the States Militia’s are the ONLY Constitutionally REQUIRED remedy to ‘Homeland Security’…NO Military on our streets with arms allowed…ever not even to protect their own…Citizens armed are allowed and REQUIRED….imho

  10. Mas, most of our military members do not have training in working in a crowd where you can’t tell who is the bad guy and who might be a good guy-it isn’t part of their MOS. LEO’s on the other hand get training on working with crowds. MP’s might be the only ones who are trained. It is a different mind set than the battle field most of us are trained for. That being said, it is foolish not to provide protection for these men/women either their own issued weapons or special issue units. What ever idiot that came up with the idea of “gun-free zones” needs to be taken behind the woodshed and given a reality check-why not just wave a red flag and say “here I am, come shoot me”! Best not get started on that rant.

  11. As several here have said, arming the troops is not going to happen. It won’t happen because this Administration distrusts the troops as much as they distrust an armed civilian population. That distrust is probably shared by many in the Pentagon as well after Obama’s purge of military officers unwilling to accept unconstitutional orders. Both the Administration and the Pentagon are fearful of armed peons that would have the ability to effectively mutiny and just say NO! The Bill of Rights would have been neutered long ago if it wasn’t for the Second Amendment. The Founding Fathers sure knew what they were doing and clearly understood that American politicos could be just as corrupt as the English ones that they had defeated.

  12. I appreciate the efforts and good intentions to protect our military personnel at recruiting centers..unfortunately..this effort is going to draw a minority who do not possess the training and common sense to to be outside with a firearm..I don’t have the answer to solve this issue..As a retired Navy Corpsman who had the honor to serve 14 of my 20 active duty years with the Marine Corps…my prayers and respect go out to the service members who are left without the means to protect themselves… Yes indeed…it sure looks like a military rifle to me too.

  13. Mas, thanks for the follow-up post; I do appreciate it! BTW, your fellow expert firearms trainer John Farnam also covered this topic today over on his blog. It, like yours, was filled with what I thought were some pretty intelligent insights (as always) that I thought other readers here might want to check out. If you don’t mind, Mas, the post is at http://defense-training.com/dti/nds-and-unnecessary-gun-handling.

    TXCOMT

  14. “Moreover, if strangers with visible rifles become the norm outside recruiting stations, it will allow the next jihadi to make a closer approach and not trigger alert status until he starts shooting.”

    That was my take when this all started.

  15. Arming every soldier is a bad idea. But arming a select group, I believe, has merit. I am sure that the military contains a higher percentage of people who have been under fire than is true of the police. Select mature soldiers who have been under fire and provide them with specialized training. They will probably be less likely to harm civilians in a fight than would be the case with the police. I believe, there really is no substitute for being shot at. And I say that as person, who has not been shot at.

  16. Our military, which Obama has already purged of all the good Officers, and Enlisted personnel, will keep their mouths shut, and parrot the Democrats anti-gun BS, refusing any, and all, armed Civilian help to guard recruiting station, no mater how many of the unarmed recruiters may be killed, or wounded, in these “Gun Free Killing Zones”!

  17. I do not often disagree with you, sir, but I think you may be off base here.

    The Marine was asked to leave by property management, NOT the servicemen inside the recruiting office.

    The official request by Military brass is clearly a measure of the PC atmosphere inside the Pentagon, now that Obama has fired all the soldiers and replaced them with perfumed Princes who gladly say yes to their King. Rather like Stalin, if I may draw the parallel.

    The Recruiting personnel all across the country are most welcoming to civilian guards, particularly the Oath Keepers, and have made it clear that they intend to continue to find ways to circumvent the DOD directive to “report” civilians standing armed guard. It is they who are at risk, not the quisling weasel yes men who would order such a directive, and who continue to resist the arming of their service personnell so clearly at risk in their strip-mall enclaves.

    While I agree that political pressure must continue, It is also critical that these men and women so clearly at risk be protected. And if the US Military will not protect their own because of some weenie brass in their plush office, then it is up to us.

    Thanks for listening.

  18. Mas, this is somewhat off topic. But, not altogether.

    I have made the decision not to get involved in a simple robbery, should I happen to stumble into one, I would do my best to get descriptions etc. As I would probably turn this into a shooting scenario, I would probably just make things worse should I pull my heater.

    On the other hand, if it is an active shooter situation my conscience would dictate that I have no choice but to get involved.

    Here is the question: when I first saw these ads for stupid concealed carry badges, I thought they were a joke and possibly could be an attempt to impersonate an leo. On the other hand having one during an active shooter situation might keep you from getting shot by a cop that arrives and doesn’t know the good guys from the bad. Flashing that badge during that first few seconds of confusion might just be the edge needed to sort things out and keep from getting shot. Of course the police could still charge you with attempting to impersonate an leo.

    Your thoughts?

  19. Randy, I’m not sure how much the exigent circumstances would help. If the rationale is, “the badge is so the cops will think I’m a cop and not shoot me by mistake,” it’s pretty much an admission to “impersonating a police officer.”

  20. Also, as you have said so well before, Mas – what’s to stop a BAD guy from wearing one of those things? As we all know, criminals will do anything to disrupt or delay an LEO from doing his job – like painting the tip of his REAL gun orange so a cop will be confused – even just a little. To me, it’s a sad state of affairs for someone to even make the darn things, let along convince otherwise sensible folks to wear them.

  21. Mas—Thanks for the response. Yes, I have thought of that. I got the original idea from where you wear your badge. I first thought that why would you want to advertise that you were an leo? Then I realized that if someone saw your gat because your garment had blown back, they would also see the badge and everything would be copacetic. At least that is what I assumed was your intention. Of course the badge doesn’t have to be leo. Just look like it. As a member of the Illinois Police Association I purchased some sweat pants with Illinois Police Assn. emblazoned down the leg. Twice people thought I was an leo. Once at our club range and once on an early morning Sunday when I went to get a couple donuts in the store. No pun intended. No one said anything, but just looked at me differently. That’s when I realized that I was still wearing those sweats.
    A month or so ago there was an incident with a ccw holder in one of the Chicago burbs. His holster had momentarily become exposed and it was called to the attention of the Police and he was arrested. Eventually someone read the law and it states that the weapon must be Mostly concealed. The man was released.
    In this scenario we have 1 active shooter and has fired several times. I have put him down but he is still moving. I have removed the weapon he had been using, he may still have another. People are shouting that they have called the Police. I know that I should not be standing there holding a firearm when the Police arrive (I can hear the sirens now). Now I have the proverbial, between a rock and a hard place. I should put my gun down and get on the ground myself. I am now at the mercy of the thug. It will be several minutes before the Police get things straightened out. Have I got that right?

  22. Well said Mas, “the best intentions do not guarantee the best results.”
    You document the problems with the idea of “guarding” the recruiting centers. But the operant phrase in your column is “political activism.” Only 1% of gun owners take ANY political action. There are 9 million gun owners in California. It is a fact if they voted in concert that it would not be a single party ruled Infringement Hell. There are many “keyboard warriors” criticizing the individuals in the arena taking action, and may have good intentions, but nevertheless fail to take any action themselves. Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works. What’s that saying from Animal House; “fat, stupid and lazy is no way to go through life.” Get to work. This is a call to join Gun Owners of America and take political action…

  23. Follow-up thought. Just like you teach that verbal sarcasm can be misinterpreted when coldly read back from a transcript, the final thought is not a personal attack on anyone, but simply: A call for the remaining 99% to also get to work. Join Gun Owners of America and take political action! But one must admit the Animal House reference rings true…

  24. Brother Randy, refer to your notes from my class. “At the mercy of the thug” is not an option. “Not being in a position that threatens responding officers” is what will save you from a mistaken identity shooting.

  25. It is hard to get people to join the Military when some “old” guy is standing guard outside… I got better instruction in 4-H than the Air Force. Just too many paradigm shifts need to occur.

  26. Thanks Mas,
    It has been some time since I wrote them. I’ll make a trip to the bank tomorrow.😀

  27. Folks, we would be wise to heed the words of Doc Casull. As worthy as words here are, actions “out there” mean far more. Get trained and PRACTICE! Make it a part of your day to practice the very skills that would make a difference in a real fight. Drawing, reloading, dry-firing, movement while dry firing, with both hands. I’m well aware live fire at a range is the best, but not everyone can do that on a regular basis. There can be no excuse for not doing what you can at home. And, while you’re on that computer, get proactive politically. Having said that, the one tip I will share re: letter writing is that the “hard copy” is the way to go because emails are ignored, for the most part. I know this as I have worked in a legislator’s office. Make the effort to WRITE A LETTER to your congressmen and women. We can make a difference!

  28. Mas, Just watched a video of this College Police Officer, being charged with Murder, for shooting the black driver of a car, who rather than obeying the Officer’s order to “Turn off the Ignition, and exit the car”, put the car in gear, intending to drag the Officer, and escape, from the area, when the officer shot him.

    They are quibbling as to whether, to car actually stared to move, BEFORE the Officer fired, or not?

    Don’t if you are involved with this case, but that Officer could really use some help, as his Agency is throwing him to the wolves, at every turn, it seems.

  29. Paul – I have been following that case as well. I just checked PoliceOne’s site again to see if they have released a second video yet – they have not. That video would be from another responding officer that is alleged to show the accused officer actually under the car, trying to extricate himself. It’s really hard to see from the first video what actually occurs. We have a similar case evolving here in Central Pa. In “our” case, a judge has blocked the release of a video shot from the officer’s taser. LEO today is under nearly constant scrutiny, being recorded either by their own devices, a witness’s phone, surveillance cameras. They can hardly afford to be human.

  30. @Paul Edwards: I’ve just watched the video several times and the officer never says, “Turn off the Ignition, and exit the car.” What does happen is that after a back and forth discussion about whether or not Dubose has a driver’s license on him and about whether it’s illegal not to have a front license plate and the officer taking what appears to be a partially-empty bottle of gin (though the color is odd) out of the car:

    – Officer says, while pulling open the door latch to the driver door and the door just beginning to open, “Well, I still have to figure out whether you have a lic-license or not. Go ahead and take your seat belt off for me.”

    – Dubose, about the time the officer says “Go ahead and take,” reaches onto the top of the door and pulls it closed with his left hand while reaching with his right hand to the ignition key area on the steering column with his right hand. Dubose says something that sounds like, “I didn’t do nothin, man.”

    – There’s a clear sound of a starter motor. Just at that time the officer repeats, “go ahead and take your seat belt off” and immediately reaches into the car with his left hand. Where he’s going with that hand is not clear. It might be to turn off the car (but that would be tough to do with your left hand).

    – Dubose starts reaching to grab or push the officers left wrist. It’s unclear whether he ever actually contacts it or not, but it appears that the officer grabs the shoulder belt and perhas Dubose’s shirt. At this point it appears that both of Dubose’s hands are in the air, perhaps because he’s seen the gun or the officer reaching for the gun (which comes into the picture one second later) though it’s not clear where Dubose’s right hand is.

    – The barrel of the officer’s gun comes into view. The officer shouts, “Stop. STOP.” without hardly pausing between and immediately fires after the second “stop.”

    – After the shot is fired, the officer falls to the ground and the car speeds away.

    From the time the officer begins to speak in the first point above until he fires is about seven or eight seconds. From the sound of the starter motor (before which the car could not move) until the gunshot is about three seconds. There is no sound of loud engine noise in those seconds (though there was enough other noise you might not be able to hear it without forensic analysis).

    Perhaps someone else can see a clue that I can’t, but I see nothing which would indicate whether the car moved or did not move before the shot was fired, except that (a) it did not appear that the officer was having any particular difficulty holding on to Dubose up until the shot (which doesn’t necessarily mean that the car wasn’t moving at all, it just means that it wasn’t moving very much if it was moving at all) and (b) the officer was yelling “Stop, stop” at _something_ that was happening, which could have been Dubose’s attempt to struggle or could have been the car moving or both. It clearly began to move or continued to move immediately after the shot, however.

  31. Have monitored FOX, CNN and msnbc on the subject of the Cincinnati police shooting and have seen nearly a dozen retired police detectives and commanders, as well a former FBI deputy director comment on the righteousness of the shooting. Every one of them, including perennial defenders of law enforcement, Mark Fuhrman and Harry Houck, without pause stated that it was a bad shoot. I have yet to see one, experienced and so called “expert” guest commentator, opine that the shot was justified.

    Fuhrman did soften his opinion a bit by stating he thought the shot was fired by accident, an odd position to take, I thought, given the alleged reports of Officer Tensing’s after action statements.

    I look forward to seeing the incident videos being dissected and analyzed by experts from both the prosecution and defense sides of the courtroom.

    Mas may have already gotten a call from the defense team, or possibly Mark O’Meara, representing the deceased’s family.

    Apologies to Mr.Ayoob for continuing this off topic tangent.

  32. Back on topic,

    Armed citizens guarding military recruiting offices, good intentions but bad idea. In any case the novelty is going to quickly wear off and these people are going to find something else to do.

    What is going to happen, and is happening right now is that recruiters are going to quietly slip their personally owned pistol into a briefcase and take it to work with them orders to the contrary notwithstanding. In fact, if I’m not mistaken there seems to be reports of a couple of unaccounted for pistols being found laying on the ground at a crime scene, so it may be common practice.

    Every recruiter (every service member for that matter) has thought about how helpless and enraged those Marines and the sailor felt when they had to stand there and get shot down like dogs by a jihadi with no means to defend themselves.
    The next thought was, “Not me.”

  33. Thanks, for all the input.

    My point being, that it seems clear that the drivers will not obey the officer’s directions, and is in the process of attempting to drive away, when the officer fired, so I am not sure whether, or not, the car actually started moving, makes a whole lot of difference?

  34. The eagle-eyed Andrew Branca over at Legal Insurrection has noted that a vehicle which can be seen through the passenger side window of Sam Dubose’s vehicle does not move prior to the fatal shot. (A note of warning, the first material in Branca’s piece here can mistakenly be understood to mean that the car moved before the shot. You have to read all the way through the piece to near the end where Branca finally says, “This would suggest that perhaps the car moving and the dragging of Officer Tensing might not have occurred until after the killing shot was fired.”)

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/07/sam-dubose-shooting-lets-go-to-the-video-tape/

  35. Kendahl.. A couple of DAYS to qualify for a ccw / cwfl? In FL it only takes a few minutes … 90 or less. I agree we don’t need these folks standing guard. And military training has become woefully superficial at best.

  36. Mr. Ayoob is a brilliant man whom I have had the pleasure of communicating with in the past. Once again he gives us something to ponder and explore!