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THOUGHTS ON THE TEXAS CHURCH ATROCITY — 115 Comments

  1. There is a very interesting interview with a lady living in the same town where the recent church shooting occurred. This interview is not to be missed. Hopefully, this link will work here. If not, try copying and pasting it in for a search on your computer. You don’t want to miss this very revealing interview.
    Agenda 21 Radio – Podbean

    https://paulprestona21r.podbean.com/e/agenda-21-radio-november-10-2017-hour-2/

    https://paulprestona21r.podbean.com/e/agenda-21-radio-november-10-2017-hour-2/
    links edited by E.P.

    PART 2, VONDRA SMITH who lives near Southerland Springs, Texas and who’s freind JOANN WARD and two of her children were killed in the shooting tells ..

  2. Larry McClain,
    Great comment and I very heartily agree with your comment in the last paragraph of your post. Jon Retired LEO

  3. It is with great remorse that I should “want” to reply to this post, but after a few days of consideration, influenced by politician/media frenzy AND my personal feelings, here goes.

    MSM media and the PORT side of our government/society are without shame, and that is a shame. I guess “common sense” has to be learned!

    Seldom can I have two emotions, diametrically opposed, at the same time. With that, comes the cascade of other emotions…

    Had this individual used another method to MURDER all these innocent souls, I honestly don’t know if my blood would have boiled to the same high degree it does at present. That said, how can anyone be angry with someone who is sick? This guy was sick. My anger befalls on those who knew it. KNEW IT and still did not take the steps necessary to put the sickness in it’s quarantined space. PERIOD!

    The sadness that weighs in my heart the heaviest, NO ONE in that congregation carried a firearm. IN TEXAS!!?? And not one person outta at least 50, had no gun? Common sense to me would dictate that someone would have a gun on their person for vermin that could be aggressive/rabid, as rural areas do have the incidents. I don’t want to make this a long rant as I am saving that for my revisit to the Nevada shooting results and conclusion to the investigation a few blogs prior.

    As I mentioned before, maybe “common sense” is a learned sense. Stay safe, Larry.

  4. Stephen, the bullet hitting the ballistic vest and somehow knocking the bad guy down and out of the fight is pretty much a Hollywood myth. People I’ve talked to who’ve been hit in the chest with powerful handgun bullets have described it to me variously as like taking a powerful punch, and not realizing they had been hit at all. Shooting at what you believe is going to stop your bullet is one definition of futility. An unprotected target should be your point of aim in that situation. A defender not confident in his ability to make a head shot might be better served with a pelvic shot, in hopes of breaking down the assailant and anchoring him, which should make a follow up central nervous system hit much easier to achieve.

  5. I carry in church sitting where I can cover the main entrance while out of the immediate line of fire. That spot also gives coverage to the side and back doors. What is the immediate effect heavy 40 or 45 pistol bullets have on an armored person? Are chest shots wasting time better spent on trying to get a good head shot? I would appreciate any insight you or your readers can give me. Many thanks.

    • I don’t know about modern Kevlar armor, but the WWII-surplus vests the bad guys used in the North Hollywood Shootout took hundreds of hits from pistols and .223 rifles. The robbers didn’t appear to be noticeably put out by any of the hits.

      For anyone not familiar with that incident, it’s a very good example of inappropriate training. LAPD did precisely as they’d been trained, firing nearly two thousand rounds at the robbers, right into “center of mass.” And kept on doing it, even when it was obvious it wasn’t effective.

      “If what you’re doing isn’t working, try something else.”

      When Jeff Cooper talked about the “Mozambique double-tap” I thought he was full of it, but the Colonel got the last laugh on that one.

      • Your lack of knowledge on this shooting is amazing. The suspects were hit in the armor several times not hundreds. Most of those hits were made at about 75 yards. I am sure you could make head shots with a pistol at 75 yards on a moving tartet. Having been mentored and trained by Jeff Cooper for 36 years I can assure you that there is no such thing as the “Mozambique double tap”. The Mozambique and the double tap are 2 different drills. When the one bank robber closed the distance with some officers they immediately attempted and scored a fatal head shot at the same moment that he shot himself. Perhaps you should save your comments for something that you actually know about.

  6. I think America should follow Israeli news media’s doctrine of never mentioning the name or image of a terrorist.
    No body count or sensationalism of the murderers acts.
    They just fade away in obscurity.

  7. The message from the news media to would-be mass-murderers is “shoot, or we’ll stop.” Stop the coverage that is. The murderers want everyone to know who they were, and the media needs the narrative.

    This day and age, any publically schefuled gathering of more than a dozen or so people need a plan for this sort of thing. Besides being armed, I would suggest some physical security: security film on glass (not bullet proof, but will keep people out), and doors locked after the event is underway, with an usher to let safe-looking stragglers in and to give early warning should a man in a mask with a rifle moves towards the building. A few CCTV cameras would help in that regard.

  8. I propose we device a new punishment for these sickies that kill innocent, unarmed people and then die. We should dig a very deep grave and put the criminal face up naked in the bottom. Directly above his face, at ground level, we should locate a working toilet in an outhouse, that flushes directly down on the naked body of the culprit. He would be showered with urine and feces into eternity, until the cavity was filled up, upon which time the outhouse would be removed. Anyone would be invited to use this toilet.

    • Or, how about the old British practice of being “Drawn and Quartered”?

      That pretty much makes an “Example” of the sicko, and it is definitely Fatal too!

      Paul

      • What does “Hung, drawn & Quartered” Mean

        A prisoner who was sentenced to be drawn and quartered was subject to one of the most disgusting and cruel methods of execution available. It involved a person being hanged, disemboweled, beheaded, and then cut into pieces. The person was usually alive when this method was employed, though not for long, and the pain at this type of death is absolutely unimaginable. The punishment also put the person in jeopardy of ascension to heaven even after confession, since it was believed that bodies had to be kept whole so they could rise at the second coming.

        This style of execution was likely first employed in England by Henry III, who reigned from 1216-1272. It was a punishment reserved for people who committed high treason. The average murderer was not drawn and quartered, and women never suffered this punishment. The method was most often used in the UK.

        There’s a little confusion about the term, and a misunderstanding regarding the way that it was practiced. Some believe it meant attaching a body to four horses running in different directions to split the body in four. This is not the case. Drawn may mean hung, or it may mean drawn to the place where the execution took place.

        The person was hanged by the neck, but this was usually not fatal — prisoners were frankly fortunate if this did cause their death. He was then disemboweled and had his genitalia removed, which were burned. Beheading came next, and then the remaining body was cut into four parts. Technically, this isn’t quartering a body, since the body was cut into five pieces. The head was normally kept near the tower of London, and the body parts would be sent to different parts of England, as a gruesome message of the price high treason would cost.

        It would take England a full 600 years to finally ban this extremely brutal punishment, and it was finally outlawed in 1832. It’s difficult to think that such a punishment existed when England was civilized in so many other ways. Nevertheless, to be hanged, drawn, and quartered was the sentence of many, including Guy Fawkes. The sentence occurred under British rule once in what is now the US, sentencing Joshua Teft for supporting the Narragansett Tribe during a war with Britain. The Founding Fathers could technically have ordered the same sentence for others convicted of treason during the Revolutionary War, but they did not, though many convicted of treason were executed in other fashions.

  9. Public safety generally depends on prevention of conscienceless violence through expectation of immediate consequences, notably via the Second Amendment. The idea of any “gun free zone” needs to be balanced with advertised security, as in Kansas, where I can’t recall any mass shootings having occurred since some new laws calculated to deter massacres were brought in a few years ago. Basic, militia-style arms training, possibly beginning with mock weapons (“rubber ducks” maybe), is a desirable route, a la Lord Monckton’s thesis, and can help identify the unstable. We definitely need to return to personalized and conscientious public mental-health care, where the unstable get continual attention.

  10. A most prestige individual once told me “Know the attack will come, have your counter attack in place. Advice never forgotten Mas.

  11. Carry when I can and never miss an opportunity to vote in the interest of the same…

  12. I live in Utah and I carry 24/7, except in church. The Leaders have asked that members not carry firearms in church unless you are a police officer and we don’t have any of those in our Ward. That makes our congregation a Kill Zone.

    • Yah. It’s a tough issue that our pastors are in. Know that they struggle with a few issues. Here is some food for thought.
      1-Insurance governs even our churches and the insurance companies don’t look fondly on a pastor encouraging people to carry guns. That’s a bigger issue than most think.
      2- The pastoral issue of wanting everyone to come to faith. Someone who is afraid of guns sees one bulging under your shirt, they are afraid. The reason’s don’t matter. The reality is that it scared them and they may not come back. The pastor’s passion is for bringing ALL people to God.
      3- Let’s face it, there are a small percentage of us (gun owners) that are idiots. Why go to church for services open carrying a large revolver? I work full time in a large church and we have had this exact issue. Want to make your pastor who is on the fence about the issue decide against guns in church? Open carry a dirty Harry special. It took a goof amount of talking with people and the individual to get the situation resolved. Pastors have enough headaches.

      Most pastors feel that if nobody knows about it then there is no foul. Be discrete. “Better to ask for forgiveness than permission”…And their vocation is all about forgiveness 🙂

      • To your point 1. Not advertising for any insurance product but be aware there is at least one company that markets primarily to churches and who is *extremely* gun friendly. My church is insured by them. They have a substantial(free to anyone) resources page, too. Just a few links:
        Safety 101: A Church Leader’s Guide to Risk Management
        Develop a Volunteer Safety & Security Team
        Prepare for Violence in Your Church
        Surviving a Violent Attack at Church
        Webinar: Church Safety & Security-Building a Team
        Webinar: Church Safety & Security-Recognizing and Responding to Threatening Behavior
        Webinar: Safety & Security-Establishing a Security Mindset
        If you find the web site of a company headquartered in Ft Wayne, IN you’re probably there.

    • A great number of churches have policies like that, usually passed down from their national councils, synods, bishoprics, etc.

      Now that concealed carry is common across much of the country, I know several people who have changed churches, or quit going altogether, figuring an establishment that doesn’t respect their civil rights isn’t fit to give them religious instruction.

  13. In his interview, Stephen Willeford said he was scared. Imagine the scene, he hears loud bangs, and he knows what that means. He sees the monster dressed all in black, with a white skull mask, and the monster has three guns. Stephen has to hit the goblin, while he is scared and all kinds of thoughts must have been going through his head. He did it! Got two shots on target. The goblin then stopped his carnage and tried to get away. Hopefully Stephen’s shots punctured the vest and contributed to the perp’s crashing his car.

    This was the “test” for Stephen Willeford. John Farnam talks about practicing and getting ready in case we are ever tested. Mr. Willeford did a great job in a horrible situation. Imagine what the media would say if his shots had missed! They would have labelled him an incompetent wannabe Rambo. He did the right thing under enormous pressure! His practice and skills and knowledge paid off! He is an inspiration to the rest of us.

    One more thing. We have to listen to the media preach about lax gun laws, and evil black assault weapons. If this tragedy involved minorities or immigrants we would have to hear the media tell us how evil white people are. In this case, everyone was white. And, best of all, the good guy with the gun, ……….the hero, ……..was an old, white guy, ………and NRA instructor! How politically incorrect can you get?

    • I’ve been lucky enough I’ve never “seen the elephant.” I just hope that if it ever happens, I’ll acquit myself as Mr. Willeford did.

  14. Funny you mention the perp’s disqualifying history. I’ve seen NOTHING about any of that in any news report so far. Lying media, anyoen? Thanks for bringing that up.

    Oh, and THANK YOU for also refusing to mention the identities of these perps, and not posting their ugly mugs. It made me furious how often even “conservative” media bombarded us all with the full name, age, hometown, and photograph of the Las VEgan creep.

    One thing I did come across, but have no way to confirm: media claim this guy’s Facebook page was taken down shortly after the incident. Someone who had seen it before it was closed stated the guy by that name, posting photos alledgedly of himself, was black….. yet all the photos we do see since show a white male. May be a second guy with the same name and age…. I don’t know. But isn’t that “interesting”?

  15. Restating your point above, the media makes celebrities out of mass murderers. Every time. A cynic might think they do it intentionally to boost ratings.

  16. I live in New Mexico but travel a lot in Texas. Hence my wife and I have Texas non-resident licenses, which were available long before New Mexico finally relented and passed a concealed carry law, Governor Bill Richardson (D) signed it. (He carries). Until last November 30, the reciprocal agreement between Texas and New Mexico allowed us to carry here in our home state. But as of November 30, New Mexico RESIDENTS cannot carry using a license from any other state. In talking to an instructor about this, I was told that unless you have a New Mexico license you are a hazard because you can’t possibly know the laws in New Mexico. My argument with him did not convince.
    I think that RECIPROCITY means just that, residency or not. If you are a VISITOR to New Mexico you can carry on your license from a reciprocal state for up to 90 days. This is really a stupid rule but we can thank all the Democrats in the state legislature.

    • Dave,

      Everything you say is true. But just imagine being one of us who live in CA, HI, MD, NJ, NY, IL (is it still bad there?), MA or DC. Count your blessings. I know I should follow Davy Crockett’s example and move to TX.

    • Just don’t try to carry in the Socialist State of New York City with your New York Sate license. What other state is there that issues CCW licenses that are good in the state EXCEPT in one city in that same state???

  17. When seconds mean life or death the police are only minutes away.
    If as gun control nuts want we are disarmed bad actors are guaranteed more than enough time to murder at will. And even if gun control nuts had their fondest wish come true and no one was armed Molotov cocktails and propane bombs are next. which is worse? The world was never a safe place and never will be, our second amendment gives us the opportunity to save ourselves from all sorts of bad actors.

    • slight correction, otherwise excellent. That Second Article of Ammendment GIVES us nothing. It merely recognises our God given natural right to defend ourselves and our society (the “free state”) and then COMMANDS government at ALL LEVELS to not infringe upon our right, and even further, to proactively see to it that no one or nothing else does, either. Our right to defense predates, is not dependent upon, and cannot be controlled, limited, infringed upon by any government. If that Article of Ammendment GAVE us the right, then a different one could take it away.