A lot of good points there. Also, there are a number of folks who gravitate to administration because they don’t want to make hard choices and the responsibility that comes with them. Once there, they often view responsibility as unclean and frequently go along to get along.
On a practical note, pointing a gun at someone often blocks your view of their hands. That’s not a good thing.
Erick Gelhaus has a couple of good data-based articles at Americancop.com on how different ready positions may or may not obstruct an officer’s view of a suspect which may contribute to a ‘mistake of fact’ shooting or make such a shooting less likely.
Had a training last week that took up the question of where to hold the gun when you aren’t actually shooting. It included the question you raise about hands but also about fastest acquisition of the dot (I am still learning that and it is not as natural as irons) and where to point the light whether it is attached to gun or hand held.
He makes a good point that “Don’t point gun at person unless and until you are in process of shooting him” is too restrictive. (Do we yet have a general consensus even just for “Finger off the trigger until time to shoot”?)
But Greg’s article links to an article by Adam Winch advising to learn the precise point in the trigger pull where one’s gun will fire. I suppose if you’re gun’s trigger has a noticeable wall before the shot breaks at which the resistance stacks, you may have to learn that. I think one ought not even try to pre-stage the majority of the trigger pull before deciding to shoot if one’s gun had the smooth, anti-flinch, pull-through double-action trigger of a full-size Smith & Wesson revolver (or a Kahr pistol).
Gun writers struggle to find fresh topics for articles. (Has anyone ever counted the number of articles published discussing pistol vs revolver, or 9mm vs .45acp?) But I think a controversy insufficiently explored would be an examination of the advantages and disadvantages of these two competing trigger types — light take-up followed by a stiff wall just before the shot breaks, versus trigger resistance smoothly and gradually increasing across the trigger stroke until the sudden surprise trigger break.
I skipped the linked article. After reading it, I have a couple of thoughts but note that 1. I wasn’t there and 2. I don’t know departmental policy (includes training).
4 Officers respond to a man with a rifle call. One has a rifle. NO ONE thought to break out a shotgun. At the range they encountered the subject, Federal Tactical Buckshot would have worked fine. (we did tests with the stuff) Didn’t have them? Didn’t think to use them?
Prestaging the trigger gives me great pause. Back when the safety rules changed from 3 to 4 there was a lot of wailing about how it was “gonna get us kilt”. Electronic shot timers proved there was no significant difference when moving from low ready to firing a shot. It’d be interesting to do that test with the sights on the target. Probably not a significant difference.
The exact definition of “prestaging” is also in play. It might mean take up the slack-not necessarily a good idea under the circumstances. Is it within policy? In the competition world, it means being just short of the pressure needed to fire. Some competitors with vastly more training than the officers have had “oops” moments under less stressful circumstances. In this case, a slip or stumble might have resulted in an unintentional discharge. What might have happened then?
Mas stated in his books and training that fine motor skills decrease in high stress situations. It’s true. Training people to pre-stage a trigger in a high stress situation is a prescription for disaster. You have no idea what it feels like when that fear hits. You can’t teach it, simulate it, or practice it.
There are lots of videos out there showing officers pointing guns at compliant unarmed citizens. Examples include ATF agents pointing ARs at a 2A advocate’s children as they walk out of the house in their underwear in the middle of the night and families pulled over for driving rental cars that friggin Hertz mistakenly reported as stolen. None of these seem justified but maybe I’m just old and don’t know any better. Of course, in Jacksonville they just pull you out of your car & shoot you with your own pistol….
Greg said, Police bosses will argue “pointing a gun at someone meets the elements of the crime of aggravated assault.” That’s correct, in some cases.
In addition to Greg’s numerous examples, I’ll add that having a firearm visibly in-hand at the low-ready meets the elements of the crime of brandishing. And unless police are statutorily exempted, simply carrying the firearm in an unconcealed holster violates open-carry bans, where applicable.
How far do the police bosses want to take this logic?
A two or three beer discussion. I’m not a cop, and it would be a real stretch to justify actually going after someone, thereby getting into a situation. However, when through no fault of my own, I’m thrust into a life or death situation where the use of lethal force is justified, I don’t believe I’d be taking up slack in the trigger. Not any more than cocking a revolver to fire single action. It would be a shoot/don’t shoot situation, and the second from last thing I’d choose. The last of course would be myself or another suffering death or serious, grievous bodily injury due to the perpetrator’s actions.
All of these positions require the presumption of “common sense” to arrive at a sane conclusion. Unfortunately “common sense” isn’t, it may well be one of, if not THE, rarest commodity on planet earth today. Much like deodorant, those who need it most don’t have any. The left side of the political spectrum has certainly given their best efforts into eliminating it from general usage.
WAY too long for my brain to keep on point and I wasn’t sure of the exact topic. To Frank’s point above, having it out and ready gets rid of the “lag time” of drawing if it is needed. In WI, we teach “hand on gun, then low ready, then point at target, finger off trigger.” THE most dangerous call today, for officer AND suspect, is a one-on-one encounter. Foot chases, arrests, etc. that continue to happen many times a day. If you follow these on X, you can see how they jump out at you.
A lifetime ago, during the times of the Weather Underground, and the BLA, the Black Liberation Army, with actors Joanne Chesimard, Twymon Myers, Herman Bell, et al – and the several, brutal murderers of the NYPD officers, Piagentini & Jones, Foster & Laurie, among others – on many suspicious, probable cause, car-stops, it was instinctive for me, and others, to carry our issued “off-duty” 38-Special S&W Chief or Colt’s Detective Special, hidden by our doffed uniform patrol cap, when approaching the vehicle and driver. We appeared most disarming, were always professional and courteous to the citizenry, yet were instantly prepared to deal with a potential lethal confrontation, if they chose that route. Mind you, these were criminals bent on murdering law-enforcement officers, bank security officers, Brinks, or other armored car deliverers, to obtain funding for their nefarious endeavors. No officer maliciously points his firearm at a citizen, yet, at the same time, must be prepared to do just that in an instant.
Snubbie in the shooting hand under the head cover is a persuasive practice. If you meet an aggressive big cat you can also toss your cap at the oversized puddy tat with your free hand as a diversion to distract the animal before you make the final decision to press trigger.
I’m OK with cops pointing guns at threatening suspects. There is no way I (as a civilian) am going to practice “dry firing with a live gun.” Way too dangerous for me. I have different guns that I could be carrying, and I don’t practice enough to hone fine motor skills for stressful situations.
I agree with TJ Indy, above. Recipe for disaster. What if a loud noise occurs while I’m taking up the slack? Forget about it. Look at the example by Greg. What if the Dirtbag at Motel 6 pointed his airsoft gun at me, and I shot him? Now I’m a civilian who shot a man with a toy gun, because I believed I was acting reasonably. In New Jersey, I will be presumed guilty, tried, and found guilty of reckless homicide for sure.
Dry fire with a live gun? Not no way. Not no how. Not for me.
Do you know about this one, or other recent similar cases of “SWATTing” (I hope I’m spelling that right) well-known conservative spokespersons and influencers? Any thoughts?
A lot of good points there. Also, there are a number of folks who gravitate to administration because they don’t want to make hard choices and the responsibility that comes with them. Once there, they often view responsibility as unclean and frequently go along to get along.
On a practical note, pointing a gun at someone often blocks your view of their hands. That’s not a good thing.
Erick Gelhaus has a couple of good data-based articles at Americancop.com on how different ready positions may or may not obstruct an officer’s view of a suspect which may contribute to a ‘mistake of fact’ shooting or make such a shooting less likely.
Had a training last week that took up the question of where to hold the gun when you aren’t actually shooting. It included the question you raise about hands but also about fastest acquisition of the dot (I am still learning that and it is not as natural as irons) and where to point the light whether it is attached to gun or hand held.
He makes a good point that “Don’t point gun at person unless and until you are in process of shooting him” is too restrictive. (Do we yet have a general consensus even just for “Finger off the trigger until time to shoot”?)
But Greg’s article links to an article by Adam Winch advising to learn the precise point in the trigger pull where one’s gun will fire. I suppose if you’re gun’s trigger has a noticeable wall before the shot breaks at which the resistance stacks, you may have to learn that. I think one ought not even try to pre-stage the majority of the trigger pull before deciding to shoot if one’s gun had the smooth, anti-flinch, pull-through double-action trigger of a full-size Smith & Wesson revolver (or a Kahr pistol).
Gun writers struggle to find fresh topics for articles. (Has anyone ever counted the number of articles published discussing pistol vs revolver, or 9mm vs .45acp?) But I think a controversy insufficiently explored would be an examination of the advantages and disadvantages of these two competing trigger types — light take-up followed by a stiff wall just before the shot breaks, versus trigger resistance smoothly and gradually increasing across the trigger stroke until the sudden surprise trigger break.
I skipped the linked article. After reading it, I have a couple of thoughts but note that 1. I wasn’t there and 2. I don’t know departmental policy (includes training).
4 Officers respond to a man with a rifle call. One has a rifle. NO ONE thought to break out a shotgun. At the range they encountered the subject, Federal Tactical Buckshot would have worked fine. (we did tests with the stuff) Didn’t have them? Didn’t think to use them?
Prestaging the trigger gives me great pause. Back when the safety rules changed from 3 to 4 there was a lot of wailing about how it was “gonna get us kilt”. Electronic shot timers proved there was no significant difference when moving from low ready to firing a shot. It’d be interesting to do that test with the sights on the target. Probably not a significant difference.
The exact definition of “prestaging” is also in play. It might mean take up the slack-not necessarily a good idea under the circumstances. Is it within policy? In the competition world, it means being just short of the pressure needed to fire. Some competitors with vastly more training than the officers have had “oops” moments under less stressful circumstances. In this case, a slip or stumble might have resulted in an unintentional discharge. What might have happened then?
Mas stated in his books and training that fine motor skills decrease in high stress situations. It’s true. Training people to pre-stage a trigger in a high stress situation is a prescription for disaster. You have no idea what it feels like when that fear hits. You can’t teach it, simulate it, or practice it.
There are lots of videos out there showing officers pointing guns at compliant unarmed citizens. Examples include ATF agents pointing ARs at a 2A advocate’s children as they walk out of the house in their underwear in the middle of the night and families pulled over for driving rental cars that friggin Hertz mistakenly reported as stolen. None of these seem justified but maybe I’m just old and don’t know any better. Of course, in Jacksonville they just pull you out of your car & shoot you with your own pistol….
Greg said, Police bosses will argue “pointing a gun at someone meets the elements of the crime of aggravated assault.” That’s correct, in some cases.
In addition to Greg’s numerous examples, I’ll add that having a firearm visibly in-hand at the low-ready meets the elements of the crime of brandishing. And unless police are statutorily exempted, simply carrying the firearm in an unconcealed holster violates open-carry bans, where applicable.
How far do the police bosses want to take this logic?
A two or three beer discussion. I’m not a cop, and it would be a real stretch to justify actually going after someone, thereby getting into a situation. However, when through no fault of my own, I’m thrust into a life or death situation where the use of lethal force is justified, I don’t believe I’d be taking up slack in the trigger. Not any more than cocking a revolver to fire single action. It would be a shoot/don’t shoot situation, and the second from last thing I’d choose. The last of course would be myself or another suffering death or serious, grievous bodily injury due to the perpetrator’s actions.
All of these positions require the presumption of “common sense” to arrive at a sane conclusion. Unfortunately “common sense” isn’t, it may well be one of, if not THE, rarest commodity on planet earth today. Much like deodorant, those who need it most don’t have any. The left side of the political spectrum has certainly given their best efforts into eliminating it from general usage.
Thanks Mas!
WAY too long for my brain to keep on point and I wasn’t sure of the exact topic. To Frank’s point above, having it out and ready gets rid of the “lag time” of drawing if it is needed. In WI, we teach “hand on gun, then low ready, then point at target, finger off trigger.” THE most dangerous call today, for officer AND suspect, is a one-on-one encounter. Foot chases, arrests, etc. that continue to happen many times a day. If you follow these on X, you can see how they jump out at you.
A lifetime ago, during the times of the Weather Underground, and the BLA, the Black Liberation Army, with actors Joanne Chesimard, Twymon Myers, Herman Bell, et al – and the several, brutal murderers of the NYPD officers, Piagentini & Jones, Foster & Laurie, among others – on many suspicious, probable cause, car-stops, it was instinctive for me, and others, to carry our issued “off-duty” 38-Special S&W Chief or Colt’s Detective Special, hidden by our doffed uniform patrol cap, when approaching the vehicle and driver. We appeared most disarming, were always professional and courteous to the citizenry, yet were instantly prepared to deal with a potential lethal confrontation, if they chose that route. Mind you, these were criminals bent on murdering law-enforcement officers, bank security officers, Brinks, or other armored car deliverers, to obtain funding for their nefarious endeavors. No officer maliciously points his firearm at a citizen, yet, at the same time, must be prepared to do just that in an instant.
Snubbie in the shooting hand under the head cover is a persuasive practice. If you meet an aggressive big cat you can also toss your cap at the oversized puddy tat with your free hand as a diversion to distract the animal before you make the final decision to press trigger.
Why do we never see cops prosecuted for these common unjustified armed assaults like the rest of us would be?
I’m OK with cops pointing guns at threatening suspects. There is no way I (as a civilian) am going to practice “dry firing with a live gun.” Way too dangerous for me. I have different guns that I could be carrying, and I don’t practice enough to hone fine motor skills for stressful situations.
I agree with TJ Indy, above. Recipe for disaster. What if a loud noise occurs while I’m taking up the slack? Forget about it. Look at the example by Greg. What if the Dirtbag at Motel 6 pointed his airsoft gun at me, and I shot him? Now I’m a civilian who shot a man with a toy gun, because I believed I was acting reasonably. In New Jersey, I will be presumed guilty, tried, and found guilty of reckless homicide for sure.
Dry fire with a live gun? Not no way. Not no how. Not for me.
Do you know about this one, or other recent similar cases of “SWATTing” (I hope I’m spelling that right) well-known conservative spokespersons and influencers? Any thoughts?
https://x.com/OwenShroyer1776/status/1902291740641390680?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2aE09brwh9vBipSc8YfOl77Vk5LLBGxqCJoIGSsOgJi-Cj8RoejSufrIE_aem_MRpJVd80clGhpihSz1nU7A
Here it is in more detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAJnaMyTulY