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An American Mumbai? — No Comments

  1. While I agree that most police departments in this country are better prepared than the police in Mumbai,you will recall that the head of Anti terrorist forces was one of the first casualties in the attack, possibly a deliberate attack to eliminate him? What I am concerned most about is that the terrorists will ambush the SWAT unit and or the initial responders and then have relatively free reign for at least long enough to get their assigned tasks completed. Possibly a Beslan Scenario???

  2. Mas,

    The terrorists are sure to know this, and therefore I doubt they’ll pick the southwest as a target. Their goal is to not just kill but incite terror, to make Americans FEAR the Islamic Jihad. A scared and beaten people are more compliant and more likely to submit to dhimmitude or to convert at the threat of the sword.

    I’m just a christian layman who knows a little about Islam and the goal of the islamic jihadists, and that’s about all the qualifications I have. Still, I think it’s reasonable to think that the terrorists will pick an area where only the police are armed and not likely to respond fast. Think central to southern CA, Chicago, New York City, or worse (and yes very likely): Washington D.C. itself (if they target an area away from the white house, they won’t have to necessarily deal with the rapid, ultra-lethal response of the Secret Service). D.C. cops are no slouches, but D.C.’s suburbs are crime-ridden and if done right, it will take cops a few minutes to realize they’re dealing with terrorist active shooters, not responding to a routine gang shoot-out. With all the people unarmed and trained to be helpless, these terrorists can kill, main, and frighten the piss out of ALOT of people before the first cop even shows up. That they would do this in America’s capital is an even BIGGER symbol for them.

    Remember, these people don’t merely aim to kill and maim. They want to send a message loud and clear. That message is, “Islam will dominate! Submit to Shari’a or die!” Even moderate sunni muslims don’t necessarily disagree. The disagreement there is that the more moderate ones object to Jihad being declared without a Calif first proclaiming Jihad (and since there is no Caliphate currently, there cannot be a state of Jihad declared). It’s a dispute over timing only, not of principle.

  3. I hate to say it but such a massacre may be required to awaken the masses from their complacency and dependence upon a government that ignores border and therefore national security!

  4. Because Americans, unlike Indians, are heavily armed, I really doubt terrorists would even consider a Mumbai like attack. My #1 guess would be a dirty bomb. Anyone with a container of nuclear waste, an explosive and a detonator could make one. The United States was paralyzed with fear after the Three Mile Island reactor meltdown, which released NO significant radiation. A real radiation attack would cause widespread panic on a far greater scale than 9/11. My real guess is several dirty bombs set off in major cities at once. If tons of drugs can easily be brought across the U.S. border, a few kilograms of powdered reactor fuel rods should be child’s play.

  5. Posted by Samuel Adams:

    “June 13th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
    I hate to say it but such a massacre may be required to awaken the masses from their complacency and dependence upon a government that ignores border and therefore national security!”

    I couldn’t have said it better, so I will not attempt to.

    It’s not a question of if, only of when.

    Biker

  6. I’ve gone to India several times with my Sikh friends from Eagle grips. I stopped and chatted with the Indian police many times.

    On a Saturday afternoon, I visited with four Indian officers patrolling the perimeter of the Presidential palace in a Land Rover. The four shared one Ruger Security-Six revolver in a holster on a web belt that was kept in the vehicle. They did have those long wooden sticks however.

    In some places like the Taj Mahal in addition to the Enfield rifles that have 55 year old FNFAL rifles with 20 round magazines. The ammunition they carried was old, corroded and did not appear serviceable. One officer I spoke with said he hopes to fire a FNFAL for the first time within a year or two.

    In retrospect the Indian military are well trained, well equipped if you can wait to have them trucked into wherever the trouble spots exist.

    Banks and places that deal in cash have elderly men with side by side shotguns providing protection.

    I have not been back since the Mumbai Bloodbath.

    A busy shopping center in any large Gun Free Zone city like Los Angeles, Chicago, or Washington, DC is waiting for an epic disaster.

  7. I don’t know which scenario is worse and worth the time to worry about: the Mumbai attack, or the Zeta drug gang invasions. Funny that as I was reading this post it is Sunday June 13. Today was the Puerto Rican day in NYC. Then I read the following article that says in PR they have a terrible problem with drug gangs taking over the countryside (ala Jamaica). Had to call in the National Guard to try and take back the territory. I really think this poor old country is going thru one hell of a time these days.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100613/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_puerto_rico_national_guard

    p.s. Wondering Mas if you have talked to any LEOs from Puerto Rico?

  8. I believe it will happen, perhaps soon. What better target to incite terror than a rural school or small town mall or athletic event or benefit picnic? Places so thought of as safe that no or few weapons would be around. As if any place is going to be safe when it starts.Mas, I hope I’m wrong but it doesn’t look good. And a crisis may just be what the admin needs to go after our guns however unwise it may be.

  9. Following up on Mr. Adams’ comment: Such a massacre might be the impetus to get Congress to pass a bill that finally allows the entire country to conceal carry. If terrorists knew that an unknown number of citizens were armed in every state of the union, they would think twice before engaging us.

  10. WTF?

    To quote: incident in Mumbai, India that left 168 civilians and authorities dead, and 308 wounded.

    AUTHORITIES?!? Words matter and have meanings. “You will respect my AUTHORITI! And this wording shows a mindset that I would not have expected from reputation or other writings.

  11. The sad thing is that of all the great nations of the world, we’re still the baby. We haven’t even been around for 500 years yet, let alone near to what some of the other former great nations were when they fell.

    What does that say about our “Great Experiment”? I firmly believe that our republican system of government AS ESTABLISHED BY THE FOUNDING FATHERS (disregard that abomination of a 17th Amendment which wrecked the system’s balance) was the best man-made system for governance this side of the Fall and this side of Eternity. The only better system of government is where God is the sole and supreme ruler. When it is us humans ruling, our system here in the US as it was originally established is best. Grossly flawed, but still better than the rest.

    I pray we endures should Christ continue to tarry.

  12. Just back from France: How their police handle it:

    My family just returned from a wonderful journey to the D-Day beaches on D-Day (6 June), 66 years later. We visited Paris next.

    As to the subject: The French military/police use FN-SCAR .223 auto rifles and travel in groups of three in camo uniforms around major tourist destinations. Police on foot appeared to have Glocks and horse mounted police have handguns( and batons), too.

    One of the major issues in France is the prohibition of Islamic head coverings for women. The government is losing this battle as full head coverings ( but not the full length chadors like in Afghanistan) are rampant. We saw a Muslim protest march in a small city with about 400-500 demonstrators protesting the head coverings and other “abuse” that the government fosters on them (they get full welfare). You may remeber the Muslim riots in France a few years ago when entire suburbs were burned.

    Countries like the UK and France that had large colonial empires now find all of their former subjects invading the homeland. Yet, I saw NO security on the Paris subways. These are perfect targets as London demonstrated. Islamic extremism is more of a problem in Europe and India than in the USA. Thank God for the Second Amendment.

  13. A quick online search will show the scope of Islamic terror groups operating within the US.

    Here is a sample:

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=terrorist+camps+in+america&aq=2

    I believe the US is more vulnerable to stealth Jihad by these groups than the obvious “dirty bomb” scenario.

    An example would be all of these mysterious California wildfires that spring up all the time and are known to be arson.(Train derailment, racial riot incitement, food tampering to name a few) I would be more suspect of the small disrupting disasters from these groups at least until they have more numbers on their side. Numbers that seem to be growing exponentially with an unspoken open border policy and its unchecked illegal immigration.

  14. Moslem and other terrorists are waging a successful psychological war against the West. A Mumbai style attack in a large city would produce lots of casaulties, but not as much fear as slaugthering a bunch of innocents in a smaller town. People expect attacks in big cities, especially those on both coasts where anti-gun politicians preside, but attacks in less populated middle America towns and rural areas will produce more fear because people don’t think something like that can’t happen in those places. Also, instead of the terrorists concentrating in larger cities where their activities can be contained, it would be impossible for our government to protect it citizens across three thousand miles of the country. The terrorists would use hit and run guerrilla tactics to keep law enforcement unbalanced and guessing where they would strike next. The only way to combat this is for all good Americans to be armed at all times and ready to defend themselves wherever they go. However, the obama administration will use any attack on American citizens in this country, especially if firearms are used, to attempt implementing more gun control under the false guise of ‘public safety’. Ben Franklin had it right when he said something to the effect, “Those who give up their liberty for safety will receive neither”.

  15. The Indians might have even been more outgunned than it appeared. There was a tradition dating back to the British of issuing native troops inferior weapons. There were single shot versions of the #1 Mk3 with not magazine. Some were even smooth bored to be single shot for the English .410 shotgun round. I looked at some of the videos of the fighting and at least one of the Lee Enfields seemed single shot.

    I think you are right to worry. This route would be perfect to smuggle in the ‘low end’ terrorists who couldn’t make it through regular immigration.

    Steve

  16. I personally would expect the attack, if a small one, at a mall or cinema multi-plex in the Mid-west and/or North-east. Perhaps a football game on a Friday night in Texas or Pennsylvania, a rock concert in Atlanta or an NFL game in Green Bay.
    Attacks where there are a lot of available targets, unsuspecting and just out for a good time.
    An other likely target would be July 4th celebrations where you have a crowd busy looking up at fireworks.
    We have to remember that they are looking for high-profile targets where lots of innocents are just going about their day. And they are not merely suicide/murderers who don’t care if they die, they want to die.

  17. Yes, there are some parts of the country that are well armed. However, people are forgetting that there are lots of well populated places where bearing arms is not only illegal, but socially stigmatized. The many urban areas of California, Chicago, New York, NJ, are but a few examples.

    Arizona is very close geographically to California. I believe that a Mumbai style attack would be successful in places like San Francisco, LA, Oakland, San Diego, or really any of the large cities of California. Concealed carry is rare in CA. CA is not looking as hard for an attack being that terrorists have targeted NY in the past.

  18. I really believe that we will have a incident sooner or later in our country much like Mumbai India had. Some people I know don’t think anything like this could ever happen. Unfortunatly look what just one shooter at VT accomplished. Do we really comprehend what people who are willing to die for their beliefs are capable of trying to accomplish.

  19. the bad guys had better choose the left coast for their shennanigans as we cajuns, here in Louisiana, have lots of battle rifles, heavy caliber pistols and love to go to the shooting range. All in all, Louisiana is a very very poor choice for some Islamic jihadi to misbehave cause he may get to see allah due to lead posioning.

  20. While our police may be better trained, what says they will go in and root out the terrorists before anything happens? Look at VA Tech incident, for example. The police waited until the incident was basically over before going in. Look at the idiot in the Tacoma, WA shooting a few years back. If he had any competency with that rifle and zeal of many terrorists, it would have been FAR worse. The cops again showed up late to that one too. Police cannot be everywhere and people have gotten too used to thinking they can be and that the cops are going to be like in the movies where they come busting in to save the day. Sometimes that does happen, but certainly not always.

  21. Hey I don’t know if this means any thing or not, but for the last 16 years
    we drive a 100 miles to use a military
    base for medical since my husband is
    retired. We were up there yesterday and the gate gurads almost did not let
    us on base,even though we have I.D.
    cards. After we may our rounds, we had to go to the visitors center and have our I.D. cards scaned with our finger prints in a machine. as I left I asked if now I could get a gun issure
    permit to carry a firearm on base.
    They justed stared at me.But now any
    way we have to get fingerprinted to just go on base. Then at another medical place off base, there was a sign that said no firearms or weapons,
    and I said to my husband that they are
    dening my constitiation rights. He said since when did you care. Well most of the time I don’t. I don’t have any reason right now to carry any fire arms,
    but if they want to deiny my rights, then I will start carring them.And I haven’t shot a gun in 30 years. i may start. But we are a western state and this is what happening here.
    take care
    Debby

  22. Mas,

    You, Evan Marshall, and various other people I respect are all asking the same questions and saying the same things. That scares me, as I think something is going to happen.

    Between the border, our nations lack of leadership and inexpirience, not to mention down right arrogance and political correctness run amuck we are heading to scary place and time in our nation’s history. I really think we are seeing the final days of the United States and our president, lack of capitalization on purpose, will do what he can to expedite the process.

    I just learned today that certain portions of Arizona, under federal control, have been declared “Off Limits” to citizens of this country. Some of these areas are as much as eighty miles north of the border.

    Biker

  23. Over the years, police departments all over the country have been taken over by administrators, the COPS have been retired or pushed out of the way…mostly due to political correctness…it wasn’t until 9/11, with the massive influx of federal money, that departments all over the country began getting equipped like they are now…with that, came the training…but none of that will matter if the people responding are working in environments where their buddies are getting laid off due to budget cuts, equipment not being replaced b/c there’s no money, cameras and cell phones everywhere waiting for the cops to get out of line to they can be on youtube…the constant drag of getting complained on, sued, disrespected, etc…combine all of that with a patient, determined, fearless enemy that is willing to commit acts that most Americans think only happen in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Chechnya, etc…individuals from those places are here and walking among us, waiting for the right time, that’s all…but I have to agree with some of the previous posts, the chances of anything happening someplace other than the Northeast or California are a little lower

  24. lot of us in the midwest would do some shooting too.As a retired LEO. i am always ready and always have something that shoots handy.

  25. I think the most likely reason for Salafist groups to attack the United States mainland is to try to cause tension between groups of Americans and America and her allies. It would also be designed to further drive a wedge between the US and the average Muslim.

    9/11 caused a true sea change in US foreign policy. A Beslan or two occurring in the united states would have soccer mom’s that hated Bush calling for genocide.

    The probable reaction in the US would likely further alienate us from our allies such as Great Britain and Australia (hey look, if you are going to take on a big problems you need allies). A similar phenomena would be how we went from worldwide sympathy in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 to widespread condemnation by 2006 or so.

    Finally, believe it or not, the average muslim may not like the United States they may even think we are bad people but the overwhelming majority do not going to come over here and start anything or even knowingly give money to terrorists. The goal of the Salafists is to push us into overreacting. That will help push the average Muslim towards supporting their faction, which is mostly made up of people that are as fringie in the Islamic world as snake handling is in the US.

  26. Rusty, there is so much wrong with that alleged claim that I don’t know where to begin.

    First off, until the whole shebang began with Jeremiah Wright, Obama was a faithful attendant of that church. Now, Wright is a blasphemously heretical and downright racist thug IMO, but no actual muslim would be a faithful attendant of a church (even one lead by a whacko like Wright) of TWENTY YEARS.

    Secondly, Obama supports causes which the muslim agenda finds abhorrent (such as gay marriage for a really good example).

    Obama’s actions are not those consistent with one with a muslim agenda, but one with an ardently secular postmodernist agenda. Now, that agenda leaves us open and begging for islamic takeover, but it is still not muslim.

  27. I suspect that the federal government is growing weaker by the day. It’s more intrusive but eventually its attempts at massive centralization will lead to an ever slower response time. You can see how feeble and inept the government is in the Gulf. Just wait until something that’s fast moving and spread out over a wide geographic area takes place. Any terrorist group who’s paying close attention could easily see that a massive event at many locations would swamp the feds and “freeze” local responses. If I was the terrorists I’d do elementary schools. It would cause widespread local terror and Phd (our masters) constipation.

  28. As much as I would like to be ready and able, Ohio has some dumb laws holding us back. Did you folks know that if I load a magazine or clip and keep both it and the gun locked away from each other it is still considered a loaded weapon, which is probably a felony. Since my employer has those no gun signs posted it also means the parking lots are off limits also. But on the other hand sharpened entrenching tools are ok, so hand to hand combat is good I guess. It’s about a joke here anymore.

  29. I guess my question becomes, what can those of us who can’t legally carry do in our dailly lives to prepair for and prevent this from happening?
    I’m putting together an emergency kit to get by for a week if utilities are interupted, I’m keeping a supply of self defense ammo on hand in case of shortage and/or imidiate need, but I have to say I feel rather vulnerable in my life being not able to carry or toat around any kind of substantial self defense items due to state law and my employer.

  30. Those of you who pack a rifle when you’re out and about, what do you store it in so as not to frighten the horses? Farnam mentioned a viola case, but there aren’t many around. A gun case would be too conspicuous. What about an electric guitar case?

  31. Not mentioned in Mr. Ayoob’s article is the fact that the main targets in the Mumbai massacre were Jews, specifically the Chabad Lubavitch House. The Islamist cultists always say “First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people.” This is a situation where, no matter how you feel about Jews, or Christians, we’d all better get together, overlook one another’s differences, and get with the program, or we’re all going to end up dead.

  32. “Those of you who pack a rifle when you’re out and about, what do you store it in so as not to frighten the horses? Farnam mentioned a viola case, but there aren’t many around. A gun case would be too conspicuous. What about an electric guitar case?”

    I’m using a Gym Bag / Duffel Bag. I’m considering going with a Snowboard or Skateboard Bag however.

    Biker

  33. The “anti terrorist’forces on India are known for their brutality,they know only how to terrorize the civilian population,when the real guys came-we all know what happened.In India cops in high positions get recruited after giving exams,where as everywhere else cops start out from the grass root levels,which results in senior cops being experienced,the opposite is true for India!!

  34. Chem pretty much hit the nail on the head. Any and all attacks on America, including 9/11, are intended to provoke a heavy handed reaction to bolster the cause of extremist Islam. The harder we strike back, the more supporters they gain in return. They aren’t even trying to win their “war” with us but are only using it to further their own political power and wealth while shaping their religion and culture to their own liking. As someone who actually knows a lot about Islam I can tell you this about most of these terrorist groups, they are not true Islam but some weird fringe groups mixed in with European Fascist ideology with some racial theory thrown into some of them just for spice. Also before we judge, let’s look back on how many people in America were a part of the KKK and imagine how bad it would have been for us if we didn’t have a stable government to combat it.

  35. BikerRN,
    A few years back when my kids started little league baseball I bought a gear bag from Louisville Slugger that held two to three bats and had a large pouch for other gear. Before I put the first bat in the bag I tryed out an AR 15 and Mini 14 and the next thing I know I’m going back to the store for another one. With a little home customizing that any semi-skilled handyman (or woman) can do, it has made a handy and inconspicuous bag for a vehicle rifle. Not ideal when going to the range but nobody asks questions when they see it in the car.

  36. I’m far more worried about an American Beslan than an American Mumbai. Schools across the country are “gun free zones.”

  37. David,

    Thanks for the idea of a Bat Bag. I’m looking for something that won’t be as out of place when I go to the Mall, as I’m wanting to carry the rifle with me instead of the handgun.

    I’ll still carry my handguns, but I’m wanting my rifle more. I really want to use the handgun as a tool to fight my way to the rifle. Sadly most bags look out of place in the environments I frequent. I don’t like the idea of leaving a rifle in the truck, as there are too many vehicle thefts here.

    Maybe society will change and I can just sling my rifle as I go about my day. That would be just dandy with me, in thought, but it most likely won’t happen until society breaks down and civility is a long forgotten memory. That does bother me.

    Biker

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  39. “That message is, “Islam will dominate! Submit to Shari’a or die!” Even moderate sunni muslims don’t necessarily disagree. ”

    James, no, terrorists targeting the USA usually say “Stop being a presence in Middle East/South Asia/Central Asia foreign affairs” – They don’t have the expectation that the US will be ruled by Islamic fundies.

    Does this mean that terrorism is justified? No.

    And while moderate Sunni Muslims in the US often oppose the war in Iraq or support for Israel, I do not think they would take too kindly to an American Beslan